Calling "all ins" with flush draws post flop.

ShaunyT

I was just wondering peoples opinions on this?  Mainly in an mtt scenario.

Just to expand on the title.  If I am out of position and raise with a strong to decent hand (lets say pocket Jacks for an example) and I get 1 call, I hit my set on the flop but there's 2 suited cards (flop= Jh 2h 5d) These days (due to everybody making a flush against me) I would be inclined to just open shove even if the pot isn't that big, yet I still find myself getting called by a hand drawing to a flush (in this case say AQh). I know shoving here is bad play as I am losing lots of value usually. It just seems every time I see a flop with a really strong hand it has 2 suited cards and the villain always gets there (yes downswing lol).

I am thinking about it wrong or is it bad play? I know if you are short stacked that's different, it just seems people are willing to risk 50-100bb stacks on a flush draw. (I'm also specifically talking calling an all in, not shoving a draw as obv fold equity applies).


Any thoughts on this type of scenario much appreciated.



Shaun

Lambert180

In the example given, people are almost certainly making a mistake so let them, set v FD you are a BIG favourite. They may be more prone to gamble with say AK of hearts cos if you have top pair, they have aFD and any ace, any king to win if you have say QJ. Running bad sucks but if you keep getting it in sets v FFs you'll do very well out of the situation

FlyingDagg

In Response to Calling "all ins" with flush draws post flop.:

I was just wondering peoples opinions on this?  Mainly in an mtt scenario. Just to expand on the title.  If I am out of position and raise with a strong to decent hand (lets say pocket Jacks for an example) and I get 1 call, I hit my set on the flop but there's 2 suited cards (flop= Jh 2h 5d) These days (due to everybody making a flush against me) I would be inclined to just open shove even if the pot isn't that big, yet I still find myself getting called by a hand drawing to a flush (in this case say AQh). I know shoving here is bad play as I am losing lots of value usually. It just seems every time I see a flop with a really strong hand it has 2 suited cards and the villain always gets there (yes downswing lol). I am thinking about it wrong or is it bad play? I know if you are short stacked that's different, it just seems people are willing to risk 50-100bb stacks on a flush draw. (I'm also specifically talking calling an all in, not shoving a draw as obv fold equity applies). Any thoughts on this type of scenario much appreciated. Shaun
Posted by ShaunyT

In my opinion they are more than likely to miss so let them call. It seems the vogue on Sky Poker among certain players to call any raise pre flop with any 2 suited cards even though I believe it only adds an extra 1% chance of hitting over non suited cards. If that statistic is not correct I'm sure Paul will know the figure.

ShaunyT

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
AsRYAN88	Small blind		10.00	10.00	1935.00
ROTTIE2010	Big blind		20.00	30.00	1985.00
	Your hole cards	K K
jordz16	Fold
berrelio	Call		20.00	50.00	1710.00
ShaunyT	Raise		80.00	130.00	2240.00
AsRYAN88	Call		70.00	200.00	1865.00
ROTTIE2010	Fold
x	Call		60.00	260.00	1650.00
Flop
		3 10 6
AsRYAN88	Check
x	Bet		100.00	360.00	1550.00
ShaunyT	Raise		300.00	660.00	1940.00
AsRYAN88	Fold
x	Raise		400.00	1060.00	1150.00
ShaunyT	All-in		1940.00	3000.00	0.00
x	All-in		1150.00	4150.00	0.00
ShaunyT	Unmatched bet		590.00	3560.00	590.00
x	Show	8 6
ShaunyT	Show	K K
Turn
		A
River
		7
x	Win	Flush to the Ace	3560.00

ShaunyT

The hand above is slightly different from my described scenario as he also has hit a pair on the flop and I don't have a set(but surely he cant think hes ahead!!!) But its the 1st level repeat THE FIRST LEVEL!!  10/20 blinds.

mugsy78

If you're worried about spots where you have 75% equity then you got problems. Also they will not have a flush draw 100% of the time. We bet for value here not for folds. This is replying to your first post not the kk hand.

mugsy78

In Response to Re: Calling "all ins" with flush draws post flop.:

Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance AsRYAN88 Small blind   10.00 10.00 1935.00 ROTTIE2010 Big blind   20.00 30.00 1985.00   Your hole cards K K       jordz16 Fold         berrelio Call   20.00 50.00 1710.00 ShaunyT Raise   80.00 130.00 2240.00 AsRYAN88 Call   70.00 200.00 1865.00 ROTTIE2010 Fold         x Call   60.00 260.00 1650.00 Flop     3 10 6       AsRYAN88 Check         x Bet   100.00 360.00 1550.00 ShaunyT Raise   300.00 660.00 1940.00 AsRYAN88 Fold         x  Raise   400.00 1060.00 1150.00 ShaunyT All-in   1940.00 3000.00 0.00 x  All-in   1150.00 4150.00 0.00 ShaunyT Unmatched bet   590.00 3560.00 590.00 x Show 8 6       ShaunyT Show K K       Turn     A       River     7       x  Win Flush to the Ace 3560.00
Posted by ShaunyT

You over played your hand on the 1st blind level. You only have 1 pair. Pot control is useful...

Lambert180

For the above hand, he might not think he's ahead but he's gonna think any 6, any 8, and any heart is gonna give him the best hand so that's 14 outs which means he's got great equity against something like TP or an overpair like you had.

Also, the way he's played it, he's ending up putting himself in a situation where it would be a mistake to fold here now that he has to call 1150 to win 3000, he just cannot fold with that many outs.

F_Ivanovic

Yeah in the hand you posted villain played the hand well. He knew he wasn't going to be ahead but he was hoping he had some fold equity. But if he did have to get it in he knows he has almost 50% equity most of the time (any 6, 8 or heart)

ShaunyT

Thanks for the different perspectives and advice. Much appreciated.

scrumdown

bad play full stop cause in long run losing play on here that many fish just cant let the flush draws go

mugsy78

In Response to Re: Calling "all ins" with flush draws post flop.:

bad play full stop cause in long run losing play on here that many fish just cant let the flush draws go
Posted by scrumdown

Just because somtimes players get it in with a draw does not  necessarily mean that their play is -EV sir...