MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND

THEROCK573

Just finished watching a training video of a guy who plays on stars and his sharkscope stats reveal he has won £157k form pokerstars. hes a hell of a player from watching him but he defended his big blind by calling with a stack less than 15bbs 3 times with QJ off, AJdd and J9cc, i would allways consider this a reshoving stack and would consider it poor play to be doing this but obviously hes a better player than me so maybe im wrong.

what size stack do you think its ok to defend your big blind with by calling?

CraigSG1

You fail to mention where these raises originated from. Maybe he is calling because he figures he has the best hand and wants to get value from them. He could be using his superior post flop play to get extra bets before shoving instead of just shoving pre and getting folds and therefore win bigger pots. 

DoubleAAA

Was this a video from deuces cracked?  if so what was the guys name mate or title of video?  I have a few videos from there.

MattBates

Defending your bb has become more fashionable again given people min raising as standard. It should be with hands that flop well where we are getting a good price to defend with. The hands we can defend with will depend on stack sizes and our perceived post flop ability versus our opponents. When antes are involved our price is better so that increases the hands it is +ev to do it with. We are calling 1bb to win a nice pot where we can check shove the flop when we flop with good equity to take down an uncontested pot or we can obviously end up getting a full double.

As to how good a play it is, it depends on whether you know what you are doing and how good your post flop play is.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

Was this a video from deuces cracked?  if so what was the guys name mate or title of video?  I have a few videos from there.
Posted by DoubleAAA

no pokernerve mate. 

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

You fail to mention where these raises originated from. Maybe he is calling because he figures he has the best hand and wants to get value from them. He could be using his superior post flop play to get extra bets before shoving instead of just shoving pre and getting folds and therefore win bigger pots. 
Posted by CraigSG1

all different positions, he flatted AJdd in the bb from an utg+1( stack 13bbs ) , he flatted QJ off from a hijack open (12bbs ) and he flatted J9cc from a middle position open ( 11bbs .) all this on 9max tables.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOUR BIG BLIND:

Defending your bb has become more fashionable again given people min raising as standard. It should be with hands that flop well where we are getting a good price to defend with. The hands we can defend with will depend on stack sizes and our perceived post flop ability versus our opponents. When antes are involved our price is better so that increases the hands it is +ev to do it with. We are calling 1bb to win a nice pot where we can check shove the flop when we flop with good equity to take down an uncontested pot or we can obviously end up getting a full double. As to how good a play it is, it depends on whether you know what you are doing and how good your post flop play is.
Posted by MattBates

yeah fair points matt, i just found found it a bit strange him trying to hit flops with such short stacks, he check folded 2 hands and got it in with 2nd pair with the QJ hand and ran into top pair and sucked out. 

THEROCK573

the guy who made the video was kind enough to reply to my question, iasked him why he was defending with a short stack as i thought it was a reshove stack, this was his reply!!!

"Yeh I think that's an old mith that many players still follow. Between players opening ranges these days, the need to acquire chips, and the pot odds, you can actually flat with all sorts of hands even with as low as a few BB's has been proven to be profitable."

GaryQQQ

Phil Hellmuth has been playing like that on the BB for years. Since the advent of online poker he's been constantly ridiculed by internet 'wizards' for being so awful.

Look at his results.

Now all of a sudden they're starting to realise that maybe he was on to something after all.

If you defend against a min-raise you're getting 3.5/1 immediate odds with no antes, about 4/1 with antes. With such good odds flatting may well be more profitable than shoving in many 10-15BB effective stack spots imo.

I've seen many winning players on Sky using such a style. Ebberdon springs to mind, look at his results.

BigBluster

In Response to MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

Just finished watching a training video of a guy who plays on stars and his sharkscope stats reveal he has won £157k form pokerstars. hes a hell of a player from watching him but he defended his big blind by calling with a stack less than 15bbs 3 times with QJ off, AJdd and J9cc, i would allways consider this a reshoving stack and would consider it poor play to be doing this but obviously hes a better player than me so maybe im wrong. what size stack do you think its ok to defend your big blind with by calling?
Posted by THEROCK573

It is easy to show by elementary mathematics that this guy is quite simply playing incorrectly. I couldn't care less which videos he chooses to post, but he is wrong and you are right.

MattBates

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : It is easy to show by elementary mathematics that this guy is quite simply playing incorrectly. I couldn't care less which videos he chooses to post, but he is wrong and you are right.
Posted by BigBluster

Please could you show this elementary maths?

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : Please could you show this elementary maths?
Posted by MattBates

+1

incase you didnt know, matt was the top mtt player on sky in 2013...

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : It is easy to show by elementary mathematics that this guy is quite simply playing incorrectly. I couldn't care less which videos he chooses to post, but he is wrong and you are right.
Posted by BigBluster

i dont know everything about poker, neither do you either, you are learning new things every day in poker and if a player of this guys calibre tells me something then i have to listen to him. his results across multiple sites are sik so he obviusly knows a thing or 2 :-)

Phantom66

It seems to be a tactic employed by one Mr Thew too...

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3a4b323731-22ec-403a-9aae-f774ab0fb3fb&plckCurrentPage=7

Lambert180

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOUR BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOUR BIG BLIND : yeah fair points matt, i just found found it a bit strange him trying to hit flops with such short stacks, he check folded 2 hands and got it in with 2nd pair with the QJ hand and ran into top pair and sucked out. 
Posted by THEROCK573

I doubt he's defending purely just to play fit or fold. Hitting is always nice like but like Matt said he's prob looking for good flops (ones that dont' hit the villians range) to just check/jam.

I dunno myself I'm just guessing, but I'd guess it's cos even half decent players now have a good idea of what hands to 3bet jam, whats hands they should call a 3bet jam with when they open etc so taking a flop puts them out of their comfort zone and will rely less on just racing loads

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : +1 incase you didnt know, matt was the top mtt player on sky in 2013...
Posted by chicknMelt

Are you sure?! he doesnt appear to be on any of slipwaters mini or main leaderboards this year?!

Maybe he used to be good

MattBates

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : Are you sure?! he doesnt appear to be on any of slipwaters mini or main leaderboards this year?! Maybe he used to be good
Posted by jdsallstar

Words hurt....words hurt. Maybe the Matt is a luckbox story is in fact true and the luck has worn off.

The reason I asked for the maths/explanation is the strategy is one that I have heard about from better players than me that I talk strategy with and they believe its +ev! Just because a strategy isn't widely used doesn't mean it isn't a good one, also, just because certain players can employ a strategy doesn't mean it will be a good strategy for all.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOUR BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOUR BIG BLIND : I doubt he's defending purely just to play fit or fold. Hitting is always nice like but like Matt said he's prob looking for good flops (ones that dont' hit the villians range) to just check/jam. I dunno myself I'm just guessing, but I'd guess it's cos even half decent players now have a good idea of what hands to 3bet jam, whats hands they should call a 3bet jam with when they open etc so taking a flop puts them out of their comfort zone and will rely less on just racing loads
Posted by Lambert180

i just asked him if hes just looking to hit flops etc and this was his reply

 Great question. Usually looking for flops where we have good equity against his range then piling it in. Sometimes though your opponent will 'freeze up', especially if they don't flat with a short stack themselves. And you can then make a cheap bluff in that spot. That's usually on a somewhat co-ordinated board that they check back on

so you  pretty much hit the nail on the head lambo.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : Please could you show this elementary maths?
Posted by MattBates

Need to make some assumptions:

You have AJ

The raise is to 3BB

You have 15 BB

You flat and check/fold if you miss

If you hit, you double up your whole stack

If you shove, 2/3rds of the time your shove gets through

AJ smashes the range of the raiser and, to keep the sums easy, is 66% against the range.

I think these are mostly reasonable assumptions but if you vary the assumptions you vary the answer.

Scenario 1 – you flat

66% you miss the flop, - 1.33BB

22% you hit the flop, +3.6BB

11% you hit and still lose, -1.65BB

Flatting is + 0.62

Scenario 2 – you re-shove

66% the re-shove gets through, +4.5BB

22% you are called and still win, +3.6BB

11% you are called and lose, – 1.65BB

Re-shoving is + 6.15

 

DoubleAAA

You have not factured in the times that take down the pot by betting 'favourable' flops that villain has missed or us allowing villain to cbet his air and call him down.

MattBates

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : Need to make some assumptions: You have AJ The raise is to 3BB You have 15 BB You flat and check/fold if you miss If you hit, you double up your whole stack If you shove, 2/3rds of the time your shove gets through AJ smashes the range of the raiser and, to keep the sums easy, is 66% against the range. I think these are mostly reasonable assumptions but if you vary the assumptions you vary the answer. Scenario 1 – you flat 66% you miss the flop, - 1.33BB 22% you hit the flop, +3.6BB 11% you hit and still lose, -1.65BB Flatting is + 0.62 Scenario 2 – you re-shove 66% the re-shove gets through, +4.5BB 22% you are called and still win, +3.6BB 11% you are called and lose, – 1.65BB Re-shoving is + 6.15  
Posted by BigBluster

Cant spend ages on this right now but how often in 2014 is someone 3x raising? This completely changes the scenario/maths of the situation and will lead to shoving a wider range being more profitable. Although if they are 3x raising it opens a large number of other questions about our opponent. At first glance, I disagree with a lot of your %s but haven't gone through them and don't have maths to back it up right now. When we flat and hit our opponent is presumably c betting and I don't think you have factored this in. You also don't include when we get a full double by flatting the top of our range and them stacking off with a dominated hand.

MattBates

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : Need to make some assumptions: You have AJ The raise is to 3BB You have 15 BB You flat and check/fold if you miss If you hit, you double up your whole stack If you shove, 2/3rds of the time your shove gets through AJ smashes the range of the raiser and, to keep the sums easy, is 66% against the range. I think these are mostly reasonable assumptions but if you vary the assumptions you vary the answer. Scenario 1 – you flat 66% you miss the flop, - 1.33BB 22% you hit the flop, +3.6BB 11% you hit and still lose, -1.65BB Flatting is + 0.62 Scenario 2 – you re-shove 66% the re-shove gets through, +4.5BB 22% you are called and still win, +3.6BB 11% you are called and lose, – 1.65BB Re-shoving is + 6.15  
Posted by BigBluster

Also, when re reshove and get called are we not getting a full double up or going home? When we flat are we not calling 2bb additional?

rancid

just fold pre

pryce6

I think it's also important to understand table positions - in the AJd hand especially. Once he opens from utg+1 it's going to be very hard for us to get a shove for 14/15bbs through and if we do it's going to be against a hand that we crush (and want to keep in the hand by peeling). These scenarios are complicated when one or two others peel, giving us a much better situation to squeeze shove.

Just generally tournament poker - especially in the later stages - has become a far more shortstacked game. Good players are far more capable of playing 10-30bb poker and for that reason peeling the other hands (QJo, J9c) are also perfectly fine imo. I'd just experiment with different styles, find one that works better for you. I quite like peeling a lot but that's because I'm big headed and I think I've got an edge over most players. 

Sky_Poker

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

I think it's also important to understand table positions - in the AJd hand especially. Once he opens from utg+1 it's going to be very hard for us to get a shove for 14/15bbs through and if we do it's going to be against a hand that we crush (and want to keep in the hand by peeling). These scenarios are complicated when one or two others peel, giving us a much better situation to squeeze shove. Just generally tournament poker - especially in the later stages - has become a far more shortstacked game. Good players are far more capable of playing 10-30bb poker and for that reason peeling the other hands (QJo, J9c) are also perfectly fine imo. I'd just experiment with different styles, find one that works better for you. I quite like peeling a lot but that's because I'm big headed and I think I've got an edge over most players. 
Posted by pryce6

Lol - very honest...

... and big headed!

BigBluster

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND:

In Response to Re: MTT - DEFENDING YOU'RE BIG BLIND : Cant spend ages on this right now but how often in 2014 is someone 3x raising? This completely changes the scenario/maths of the situation and will lead to shoving a wider range being more profitable. Although if they are 3x raising it opens a large number of other questions about our opponent. At first glance, I disagree with a lot of your %s but haven't gone through them and don't have maths to back it up right now. When we flat and hit our opponent is presumably c betting and I don't think you have factored this in. You also don't include when we get a full double by flatting the top of our range and them stacking off with a dominated hand.
Posted by MattBates

Matt, it's all about the assumptions. If you assume that the villain always has AA and will always call you down, then obviously re-shoving is a bad play mathematically.

The mathematics is unarguable - it's mathematics, it's a fact. The assumptions are debateable. Is it a reasonable assumption that when you hit the flop you will always double up? Maybe not. Is AJ always going to be smashing the range? Maybe not. Overall, could you describe the assumptions I made as reasonable?

And how about laddering? What are 3 or 4 BBs EV when laddering one place means £300? To hell with scenarios and assumptions - this is hard cash we're talking about!

Going back to the original question. Is AJ and 15BB a call or a shove? On most assumptions, it is a clear shove. And it's not even close.

cgoldie

I think the key thing here is what your goal is with the hand. 

If your goal is to make them fold a majority of a wide range then shoving is clearly a bad move, plenty of tight players are going to be doing this and folding their small pps weak ax and Broadway's leaving only dominating hands calling. If this is then case shoving ajs isn't going to be the best play, it's going to be better to flat and check shove flops u hit, flops u draw well on and flops that only hit a small part of their range such q high rainbow flops. Leave your shoving bluff range for suited junk with blockers like ace rag suited and kx suited that plays bad post flop.

If you think their goin to call a wide range with raggy aces and junk Broadway's then shoving is probably going to be better ev as your going to be dominating a lot. If its a looser player that's going to get these types of hands in pre calling isn't going to pan out so well as they will be more willing to call a shove on the flop with an underpair and weak draws etc. your preflop should then consist of strong hands that dominate their range e.g, a10s, ajo, kqs, 88+.

Unfortunately these days the majority of players lean towards the tighter side.