should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?

craigcu12

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

the only readings I can really give on him is he was folding most his hand pre but with full ring tables hands are normally much tighter. What I meant when I was asking if I should allow the draws a chance to bluff is when on the river they have missed them, if I check he take the chance to bluff a trip jacks or does it being the top card make bluffs a bit too risky?
Posted by craigcu12

i like that line, i use it alot on pokerstars where the players are more agrro, bet the flop bet the turn then check when the draw misses and they cant help themselves and usally they bomb it big.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff? : i like that line, i use it alot on pokerstars where the players are more agrro, bet the flop bet the turn then check when the draw misses and they cant help themselves and usally they bomb it big.
Posted by THEROCK573

Even on sky you see it all the time from bad aggressive players who will always bet their missed draws in a spot where they don't bet nearly as often for thin value. 

craigcu12

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff? : i like that line, i use it alot on pokerstars where the players are more agrro, bet the flop bet the turn then check when the draw misses and they cant help themselves and usally they bomb it big.
Posted by THEROCK573

I do get it quite a lot myself on the cash tables at the minute too which I wouldsay is because people will know from my diary that I'm not on the best of runs.

HYPETING

Pre and Post-flop is fine.

Dont like pot bet on turn, most likely betting around 1000ish.

River is gross, think betting is bad. Only getting action by hands that beat us I feel. Depending on how big he bets on river, I make my decision there.

mugsy78

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

Pre and Post-flop is fine. Dont like pot bet on turn, most likely betting around 1000ish. River is gross, think betting is bad. Only getting action by hands that beat us I feel. Depending on how big he bets on river, I make my decision there.
Posted by HYPETING

+1. Betting big on river folds out anything you have beat, so has little value.

craigcu12

why would a full pot size bet on the turn be considered bad?
the hands that I'm still ahead of on the turn far out number the ones that I've gone behind to, also I'm thinking myself the 2pair and sets would be raising the flop.

mugsy78

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

why would a full pot size bet on the turn be considered bad? the hands that I'm still ahead of on the turn far out number the ones that I've gone behind to, also I'm thinking myself the 2pair and sets would be raising the flop.
Posted by craigcu12

Because we should be betting for value not for folds. You're bloating the pot with a marginal hand. Remember QQ is still only 1 pair. You need to be controlling the size of the pots more imo. The way you size your bets in MTT's is a little bit different than in ring games.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

why would a full pot size bet on the turn be considered bad? the hands that I'm still ahead of on the turn far out number the ones that I've gone behind to, also I'm thinking myself the 2pair and sets would be raising the flop.
Posted by craigcu12

Bit of a silly extreme example but that's like saying. 'I think I'm ahead pre so ill just open shove KK'. There's more to it than deciding if you're ahead then piling money in, you have to think about the range that can call the size you make it... For instance is Tx calling full pot? Probably not. Is KQ calling full pot? Probably not. Are weak Jx hands like J8 calling full pot? Maybe, maybe not. We know every hand that beats us is calling but we need to keep in all them weaker hands too.

FWIW, I definitely check river too and prob to c/f

mugsy78

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff? : Bit of a silly extreme example but that's like saying. 'I think I'm ahead pre so ill just open shove KK'. There's more to it than deciding if you're ahead then piling money in, you have to think about the range that can call the size you make it... For instance is Tx calling full pot? Probably not. Is KQ calling full pot? Probably not. Are weak Jx hands like J8 calling full pot? Maybe, maybe not. We know every hand that beats us is calling but we need to keep in all them weaker hands too. FWIW, I definitely check river too and prob to c/f
Posted by Lambert180

This^^

Remember craig the less you bet the wider range villain will call with and conversly the more you bet the less he can call with, so it's finding the right size bet to keep worse hands in. I don't mind potting every street it if i know villain is really bad without a fold button and we have a huge amount of equity in the hand.

It's almost like you're trying to shake him off the hand for fear of being out drawn.

Also it's a mistake to check turn and bet river if you think villain is on a draw as you give him a free card to get there and he folds to river bet if the river bricks.

You should bet turn and c/call river when it bricks if you're putting him on a draw as hes folding a busted draw to your bet but prob betting river with a busted draw as it's the only way he can win the pot.

craigcu12

i did a bit of research this week and i think i found the think that could be the very reason why I'm playing like i am at the minute.

things preflop are no problem at all, my polems are all postflop.

at the minute i play like a TAG fish
unlike the standard fish, TAG fish preflop play is fine, where we go wrong is with our hand strength post flop.

My level of thinking at the minute is level 2 so when I'm doing bets I'm doing them knowing that their is risk of sets and two pair as well as huge numbers of scare cards.

what's making me do so many mistakes betting post flop is I'm only thinking of the one hand that i could have, but the number of time I've seen paul saying to me in posts that I'm only going to get called by better hands I'm now seeing myself why i am really on this slope.

having read through all this post them 2 big general chat posts and the research I've did, what i am thinking now is when i do my opening bet on each street what i should be doing is thinking of how i play my weaker hands in those spots.
my opening bet preflop is usually the same with each and every hand weather it be 22 or AA, it is them 3bets that start to make the strong pocket pairs and AK AQ stand out from the rest.

as paul once said to me winning small pots is better than loosing big ones.

mugsy78

In Response to Re: should i have just allowed all the draws a chance to bluff?:

i did a bit of research this week and i think i found the think that could be the very reason why I'm playing like i am at the minute. things preflop are no problem at all, my polems are all postflop. at the minute i play like a TAG fish unlike the standard fish, TAG fish preflop play is fine, where we go wrong is with our hand strength post flop. My level of thinking at the minute is level 2 so when I'm doing bets I'm doing them knowing that their is risk of sets and two pair as well as huge numbers of scare cards. what's making me do so many mistakes betting post flop is I'm only thinking of the one hand that i could have, but the number of time I've seen paul saying to me in posts that I'm only going to get called by better hands I'm now seeing myself why i am really on this slope. having read through all this post them 2 big general chat posts and the research I've did, what i am thinking now is when i do my opening bet on each street what i should be doing is thinking of how i play my weaker hands in those spots. my opening bet preflop is usually the same with each and every hand weather it be 22 or AA, it is them 3bets that start to make the strong pocket pairs and AK AQ stand out from the rest. as paul once said to me winning small pots is better than loosing big ones.
Posted by craigcu12

You need to learn that on every street the hand in essence resets itself. What i mean is that the equity in your hand will be changing on every street. It seems that in the hand you posted in this thread your thought process was "I've got QQ i need to bomb it". More composure is needed, this is highlighted most by your bet on the river. Your bet was only going to be called by Jx but fold out busted draws. Also its the turn/river i think that you need to focus on a little more than post flop.