MTT facing backraise shove 25xbb deep

DOHHHHHHH

£11, £750 gtd BH

Hi, last post was helpful so coming back with another hand.

Again Sky mtts aren't my strongest game (what are you good at doh!?!!!), don't seem to do as well on here as elsewhere.

Can't remember what my notes were exactly but they weren't very complimentary, typical passive fishy type of player.

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Relevent history, .

About 5 minutes ago villain had peeled my open from the BB, we c/c ATx, he leads A ott, I flat, Q otr he bets, I shove, he snaps with AQ. I had QQ

Then I doubled by shoving 12xbb sb into the bb with 89s. He will have seen that.

Maybe more importantly, vodkadan had limped utg the previous 2 orbits, xxx had limped behind and I'd shoved from the small blind, once with 18 big blinds, the second time with 20ish and got folds

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I felt on this occasion with me being up to 25xbb and only 1 limper in the pot, and more players yet to act behind me, that an isolation raise was better than a shove.

Then I get backraised.

It is possible that...

a) he's picked up that I've jammed over his limp twice recently and is limp/trapping a monster

b) he's got fed up and doesn't believe I can have a hand everytime so is sticking it in my eye with a more traditional limping range.

I think b is much more likely than a, but are we still calling?

Spose 21.5xbb is a lot to play on with when there are no aunties, but I can't imagine im behind very often here, probably flipping, occasionally a big favourite.

Call or fold?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
EvilPingu	Small blind		100.00	100.00	5422.50
vodkadan1	Big blind		200.00	300.00	8257.50
	Your hole cards	7 7
18AND5TIME	Fold
xxx	Call		200.00	500.00	11395.00
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		543.00	1043.00	4312.00
EvilPingu	Fold
vodkadan1	Fold
xxx	All-in		11395.00	12438.00	0.00
DOHHHHHHH

hhyftrftdr

I think I'd pass. He might occasionally rock up here 3's or 4's here, but he's probably shipping all high card combos (maybe in frustration), of which we are of course ahead of now but will have to dodge.

If you're happy to flip for a 50bb stack then go for it, but by the sounds of it you're on a pretty favourable table and there are probably better spots where we can get our stack in first.

77Chris91

Don't play many MTT's but I don't like taking flips against villains I perceive to be much better than.

Taking this flip may not allow you to realise your significant edge over oppo. Think we can find way better spots to own this player type

LARSON7

Think there will be better spots than 7s here, especially as player is pretty bad.

DOHHHHHHH

I've never really got this 'better spot' thing. Not saying it's not correct thinking just I struggle with it.

I've got 20xbb if I fold, and next level is 150/300 so it shrinks to 13.5xbb soon.

If I have the correct odds to call here v a reasonable range can I rly turn it down?

I guess a better spot will be a similar spot to this 1 but with me having a stronger holding. Is that likely before I get to shove/fold stage? Idk......

mugsy78

I think limping in pre may be an option here. We have great implied odds with the blinds being dragged into the pot. I mean would you have raised with 22? because the hands almost play the same post flop equity wise, and both pairs will hard to play, or take much heat unless we set up.However i don't mind the raise either, but the limp/raise looks super strong so I'd fold for sure. It kinda looks like a big PP to me, and vs a spewy shove the vast majority of the time it will be 50/50. 77 is the kind of hand that is much better to 3-bet shove with, as we get the FE with it.

Phantom66

Surely the whole point of raising with 25bb instead of jamming is that you can fold if shoved on?

If opponent has a hand they think is good to limp r/r all-in with, then normally I would expect we are facing AA or KK.

If opponent is adjusting to your play then they are expecting the raise and would have to be a very good player to reshove light. Why is the same good player playing so passively in earlier hands? I think b) is wishful thinking.

I would fold. So many hands crush us and the rest are flips. With 21bb left behind we don't need to be calling looking for a flip.

Jac35

I Havent  a clue.

Top of the Posts nomination for using "backraise" though!

BigBluster

I think this post is fascinating as it signposts the difference between a great cash player and a MTT reg. In the scenario proposed, the answer is absolutely clear.

The great cash player analyses the villain, the history between you both, different levels of thinking, who is trying to out-manoeuvre who....

The MTT reg thinks: I'm either a small favourite (against 2 overcards) or massive dog (against an overpair), clear fold! There will be better spots to get my money in than the 'small favourite, massive dog' scenario.

With 20+BB left, you unequivocally must let this go.

Kerrnal

hi dohhhh i would personally wait for a better time or spot which i no you dont like , but what do i no haha

good luck at the tables run good

DOHHHHHHH

Phantom & BB think it's a snap fold after the backraise.  

Mugsy likes a limp.

A mate of mine off thread who's opinion I respect greatly think's I should shove over a limp.

I, naturally, like the iso/call off, because I can't fold.

The legend that is Kerrnal is back on the forum.

And Jac hasn't a Scooby.

All we need now is a 'fold pre'.

TK?

There was me thinking the thread was a fail!

BigBluster

In Response to Re: MTT facing backraise shove 25xbb deep:

A mate of mine off thread who's opinion I respect greatly think's I should shove over a limp. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

This is not the scenario posted. The question is whether to call a shove.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: MTT facing backraise shove 25xbb deep:

In Response to Re: MTT facing backraise shove 25xbb deep : This is not the scenario posted. The question is whether to call a shove.
Posted by BigBluster

Yes but the guy in question has given advice on the hand in general. This is allowed I think.

KAM99

I'm in the fold camp on this, certainly as played and with the back-story. I think he has seen you doing the shoves on the limps and tried to trap you. Though oddly I would really expect him to call and trap again as he is OOP and can easy check to the raiser to hopefully get another street of betting out of ya.

I can somewhat agree with your friend though about shvoing over a limepr, bbut also get why with 25bb you just raised. Still as played let it go, you are either a slight favourite here or a massive dog, and virtually never the one crushing villian. I'd say 8 out of 10 yuo are thae massive dog given the history etc.

Slipwater

I think this is almost always a fold. You have too many chips to be going with 7s (unless you're late for an appointment, or are hungry/tired/need the toilet). The best you can hope for is that he has 6s, and how often is that going to be the case? If he had fewer chips than you, I'd seriously consider calling, but you don't even have him covered as a back-up.

Nah. Let it go, brother.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: MTT facing backraise shove 25xbb deep:

A mate of mine off thread who's opinion I respect greatly think's I should shove over a limp.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Thin I have real life friends brag?

Statistical fact shove over limpers = small pot win 7/10 times 2/10 you get it in good and lose a big pot  1/10 you get in it bad and lose a big pot. (disclaimer this may not actually be a fact)

CraigSG1

This is a classic rather be the aggressor than the caller. I would far rather shove over a raise than call it off. I agree he probably has more A8s hands that big pairs but why be the one put to the test when you can do that to him/others with a far better success rate. 

I know your thinking that blinds are up soon but you still have room with 13BB, especially with no antes. 

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT facing backraise shove 25xbb deep:

I think limping in pre may be an option here. We have great implied odds with the blinds being dragged into the pot. I mean would you have raised with 22? because the hands almost play the same post flop equity wise, and both pairs will hard to play, or take much heat unless we set up.However i don't mind the raise either, but the limp/raise looks super strong so I'd fold for sure. It kinda looks like a big PP to me, and vs a spewy shove the vast majority of the time it will be 50/50. 77 is the kind of hand that is much better to 3-bet shove with, as we get the FE with it.
Posted by mugsy78

Limping behind on the button would not be a good idea in my eyes. Our implied odds are not very good to set-mine against players playing a wide range. When it's limped around, we're likely to be up against some fairly weak holdings which will very infrequently pay us off big post-flop when we hit our set.

When we raise pre-flop in this situation and in late position, we can represent so many more hands and take down moderately sized pots with c-bets post-flop. We can also be given credit for far more bluffs post-flop on the occasions that we do hit our set. It's very hard to be given credit for a bluff when we played passively pre-flop.

We should play 77 just the same as 22 in this situation. We should play it just the same as AK or AA. Our range is less well defined when we raise while we can still be given credit for strength post-flop. Being in position will make our lives very easy post-flop, particularly against passive players who will usually give us an honest idea of the strength of their hand.

BorinLoner

As for whether we call the limp-3-bet from UTG. I don't think we should. The villain is repping AA and KK. Even if he doesn't have one of those, he could still be playing a pair QQ or lower and wants to get it in here rather than "face tough decisions" post flop when he calls. Plenty of those pairs beat us and the rest of his hands are two overs.

I think we're behind here much more often than you think.


BigBluster, if the MTT reg in your scenario gives no thought to previous history with the villain, then he's not as good as the "great cash player" that does. The two variants of the game are not as different as people frequently suggest. The only real difference is in ICM, but this is not such a difficult thing to pick up.