What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?

streetdog

Hi I've been playing NL10 reasonably successfully (I think!) for the last couple of months, had previously been playing NL8, never really bothered with NL4. Before that on this site I had played quite a few months of DYM's £3 and £5 ones. Anyway I've taken my BR from an initial £30 to just under £300 since about the begining of november. I seem to lose quite a lot of hands on the river calling off big river bets, often out of position (them not me) when I convince myself that they can't have limp called a 4x or 5x raise pre flop with say 7 9 off suit to river a straight against my set only to find out that they have indeed called off half their stack with a straight draw right up to the river and then shoved it all in as I am obviously on the hook as it were. This example hand isn't quite like that but it happened earlier today and has made me think. My thinking in hindsight was that I probably should have assumed that when he called pre and then again on the flop was that he had A4 but at the time I convinced myself that it could quite easily have been A9 also. I certainly didn't put him on 22 and have no idea why he called on the flop as if I was him I would have put me on 10 10 or JJ or something. Actually now I've typed this out I realise that I probably should have folded but I kind of wonder whether if he hadn't hit the 2 on the turn would he have tried to put in a big bet anyway to try and push me off my hand. I think I may have just answered my own question but anyway I'll post and see what you think. If you're gonna laugh then don't bother cos I already feel like a proper donk

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
MIckeyB	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£3.03
WOBLY57	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£15.50
	Your hole cards	A A
wartic	Fold
johnnyd117	Fold
ScouseDean	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£25.92
streetdog	Raise		£0.40	£0.65	£12.69
MIckeyB	Fold
WOBLY57	Fold
ScouseDean	Call		£0.30	£0.95	£25.62
Flop
		4 9 4
ScouseDean	Bet		£0.40	£1.35	£25.22
streetdog	Raise		£1.28	£2.63	£11.41
ScouseDean	Call		£0.88	£3.51	£24.34
Turn
		2
ScouseDean	Bet		£1.00	£4.51	£23.34
streetdog	Call		£1.00	£5.51	£10.41
River
		J
ScouseDean	Bet		£12.30	£17.81	£11.04
streetdog	All-in		£10.41	£28.22	£0.00
ScouseDean	Unmatched bet		£1.89	£26.33	£12.93
ScouseDean	Show	2 2
streetdog	Show	A A
ScouseDean	Win	Full House, 2s and 4s	£24.93		£37.86

KAM99

Hi.

I can't see the amounts bet or the pot on your HH, which makes advice hard, but I'll try.

I think you don't need to much advice on this one. YOu felt it yourself at the turn that you were in trouble, but you just couldn't put him on his hand. It is quite difficult when someone makes a set at the turn, but given that he limp called preflop you have to assume small pairs, as it is a bad habit of players, but many do it. So unless he was limping a lot this was a likely hand range.

So when he donk bets the flop that looks even more likely. Often done again when players see a flop that doesn't look to threaten their low pair, but they don't want to see higher cards. Not the only reason for a donk bet of course, but it is a common one at low stakes.  Not sure what he was thinking calling the reraise, but...

At the turn he leads out again, and that would have me worried. He only calls the reraise but then wants to lead out on the turn... why? Unless he plays weirdly on a regular basis I'd be very concerned he had improved some how on the turn.

I'd really want to see the amounts bet on turn and tiver to give advice on how it was played at this point. Not easy to get off your hand on that board, but you at least picked up the danger signal at the turn, which is good.

TINTIN

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

Hi. I can't see the amounts bet or the pot on your HH, which makes advice hard, but I'll try. I think you don't need to much advice on this one. YOu felt it yourself at the turn that you were in trouble, but you just couldn't put him on his hand. It is quite difficult when someone makes a set at the turn, but given that he limp called preflop you have to assume small pairs, as it is a bad habit of players, but many do it. So unless he was limping a lot this was a likely hand range. So when he donk bets the flop that looks even more likely. Often done again when players see a flop that doesn't look to threaten their low pair, but they don't want to see higher cards. Not the only reason for a donk bet of course, but it is a common one at low stakes.  Not sure what he was thinking calling the reraise, but... At the turn he leads out again, and that would have me worried. He only calls the reraise but then wants to lead out on the turn... why? Unless he plays weirdly on a regular basis I'd be very concerned he had improved some how on the turn. I'd really want to see the amounts bet on turn and tiver to give advice on how it was played at this point. Not easy to get off your hand on that board, but you at least picked up the danger signal at the turn, which is good.
Posted by KAM99

click on the hand history and drag to right  and you will see the bets made and pot size

streetdog

Thanks for that, I realised as I was typing that writing it out had actually clarified it a bit to me. I just couldn't put him on 22 as if I had had 22 on that flop and donked it to try and rep A9 and got reraised I would have folded assuming I was facing an over pair to the 9 or the A9 that I was repping. Also I should say that I had no info not having played against the guy before other than the size of his stack which although it doesn't really mean too much does indicate that at the very least he's running good
I would be interested in Tintins input too as you are obviously more experienced than me and we sit at the same tables quite often although I don't think we've ever mixed it up in any big hands. Hopefully you haven't seen me make too many dumb mistakes due to the amount of tables you play but any critiscm is welcome obviously this may be an unfair request. I hate this as I feel I'm exposing weaknesses to people I play against but at the moment I'm interested in improving my game and learning to beat the level more consistantly. From what I've experineced over and over at this level it seems that its a toss up as to whether his shove meant strength or a deperate attempt at a bluff. I suppose as at the end of the day the maths would say that I have a pair and am beaten by a set of 4's a set of 2's, 9J or a badly played preflop set of 9's.
thanks again for the reply

TINTIN

my advice generally sucks, I know what I want to say but it never translates well when I type so haven't got anything else to offer from what KAM99 said.

just ask yourself how many times you've seen someone weffectively shove for twice the size of the pot on the river and its a bluff.

I don't think its the worst call in the wolrd and in the time available its easy to press the call button. im guilty of it my self.

streetdog

yeah you're right about the twice the pot size bet. i think I do make bad decisions sometimes when I'm against the clock. I ve been trying to step up to 3 tables from 2 and to be honest I'm finding it tough sometimes to make decisions when i'm involved in pots on all 3. I may go back down to 2 tables for a while longer.
Thanks for the advice
Pat

KAM99

Yeah, I've looked at the betting now (didn't know you could drag it.. doh), and it is a stonecold fold on the river. Given the fact of the way the flop and turn went there is a MEGA low chance he doesn't have a better hand than a pair here. He is shoving hoping you'll call with an overpair, which you did. Just as well you were shortstacking, which I also hate. lol

One thing I trry to avoid is playing for stacks with a pair. Not saying never, but I'm certainly ultra aware of betting against me if that is all I have, even if it is an overpair, as that is still only a pair.

I will say his call of the raise on the flop was the worst part of the hand. I guess he could have thought you were bluffing him, but seriously with 22 that is a dumb play. Short of the miricle 2 he got on the turn you are not going to see anything that makes you like your hand any better at all.

Yep, stepping up amount of tables can affect choices. I found my limit is between 4-6 while still maintaining good play. After that I just get worse and make bad choices at times.

streetdog

As you say should have been a fold on the river. I take on board what you say about playing for stacks with just a pair too. One last question, what do you mean by "short stacking"?

BigBluster

Look at it from the villain's perspective.

Pre:

He limps under the gun then calls a small raise: he's looking to see a flop with implied odds. That screams small pair.

Flop;

The flop is 449.

He may be good with his deuces, so makes a probe bet of 40p

You raise another 88p - are you raising with KQ?/AT?  - maybe your entire range? He doesn't know, so he calls. His deuces will be good here most of the time.

Turn:

The deuce comes - hallelujah!

He's now got the goods! Again he leads with a small bet, fully expecting you to raise again so he can move all-in. You disappoint him by flat-calling.

The river comes.

He's obviously got you on top pair at least, maybe two pair. He shoves. You call. His initial 10p limp led to a 24 quid pot!!!

Some will pick holes with his pre-flop play but that is arguing theoretically about fractions of a big blind. Overall, one could argue that his play was quite reasonable. 

There was only one huge mistake in this hand and it was not his 10p pre-flop limp.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

Look at it from the villain's perspective. Pre: He limps under the gun then calls a small raise: he's looking to see a flop with implied odds. That screams small pair. Flop; The flop is 449. He may be good with his deuces, so makes a probe bet of 40p You raise another 88p - are you raising with KQ?/AT?  - maybe your entire range? He doesn't know, so he calls. His deuces will be good here most of the time. Turn: The deuce comes - hallelujah! He's now got the goods! Again he leads with a small bet, fully expecting you to raise again so he can move all-in. You disappoint him by flat-calling. The river comes. He's obviously got you on top pair at least, maybe two pair. He shoves. You call. His initial 10p limp led to a 24 quid pot!!! Some will pick holes with his pre-flop play but that is arguing theoretically about fractions of a big blind. Overall, one could argue that his play was quite reasonable.  There was only one huge mistake in this hand and it was not his 10p pre-flop limp.
Posted by BigBluster

Beg to differ on this. Villain gets pretty damn lucky, nothing more nothing less. He just gonna bet call a raggy run out? Put hero on AK the whole way down? 

He's lucky he binks his 2 outer, and is also fortunate he's up against a hand that can pay him off. This is exactly the type of villain we want to play against on the cash tables.

Perhaps we can pass the river, but it's all good until then.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

Hi. I can't see the amounts bet or the pot on your HH, which makes advice hard, but I'll try. I think you don't need to much advice on this one. YOu felt it yourself at the turn that you were in trouble, but you just couldn't put him on his hand. It is quite difficult when someone makes a set at the turn, but given that he limp called preflop you have to assume small pairs, as it is a bad habit of players, but many do it. So unless he was limping a lot this was a likely hand range. So when he donk bets the flop that looks even more likely. Often done again when players see a flop that doesn't look to threaten their low pair, but they don't want to see higher cards. Not the only reason for a donk bet of course, but it is a common one at low stakes.  Not sure what he was thinking calling the reraise, but... At the turn he leads out again, and that would have me worried. He only calls the reraise but then wants to lead out on the turn... why? Unless he plays weirdly on a regular basis I'd be very concerned he had improved some how on the turn. I'd really want to see the amounts bet on turn and tiver to give advice on how it was played at this point. Not easy to get off your hand on that board, but you at least picked up the danger signal at the turn, which is good.
Posted by KAM99

Really narrowing him down to exactly 22 on the turn?

streetdog

Thanks guys, just looking back at what I thought I was gonna gain from this post and I remembered my original question! If the villain thought process is as BigBluster says then how could I have played it to a better outcome? I guess the only other thing I could have done would be to bet bigger on the flop and take it down there but if he does think I'm trying push him off his small pair with AK then he's calling anyway and still hitting his set. I think maybe I could only really have played it the way I did but without the dumb river call when I should have just accepted that I'd missed something. Like hhyftrftdr says I guess people playing like he did and missing are what we're after. The one thing I have deduced from NL10 is that I win a lot more money when people miss a draw than when I hit one! By this a mean you seem far more likely to miss a flush draw than hit one and there are a lot of people that will call a lot of bets chasing that 5th heart!

KAM99

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

As you say should have been a fold on the river. I take on board what you say about playing for stacks with just a pair too. One last question, what do you mean by "short stacking"?
Posted by streetdog

Short-stacking = playing with less than the table maximum. I assume table was double stack table? Assumed it based on other players stacks, but maybe it isn't? Don't get me wrong I know there are people that play profitable poker short-stacking, but I've just never been a fan of it.

If this was a normal 10nl table though, just ignore me.

KAM99

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)? : Really narrowing him down to exactly 22 on the turn?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

No, not at the turn. I'd be putting it as my main concern though as his line makes no sense other wise. He donk bets and then flats a 3bet on the flop but liks is hand enought o suddenly lead out again on turn. I've seen it happen enough to put it top of my list of possible hands, but I don't fold the turn either, but do what hero did in this case and flat call.

I don't see him doing this with anything other than a FH or a six at this point. Only other hands I might have considered at the turn was an overpair like 10's or J's, but I'd not expect a shove on river in that case given the fact he must assume hero has a hand too by now.

streetdog

Ah ok! No KAM it was a normal NL10 table and I was bought in for £10. I always buy in for the max and then generally top up if I sink below £8.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

The river comes. He's obviously got you on top pair at least, maybe two pair. He shoves. You call. His initial 10p limp led to a 24 quid pot!!! Some will pick holes with his pre-flop play but that is arguing theoretically about fractions of a big blind. Overall, one could argue that his play was quite reasonable.  There was only one huge mistake in this hand and it was not his 10p pre-flop limp.
Posted by BigBluster

Oh dear, so much fail here based on results orientated thinking. What happens when the turn is a 3, hero bets again and villain calls? River is another blank looking card and hero bets again and villain decides to call? Depending on how much Hero decides to bet he could end up losing a pot of around 16 quid. That's going to happen far more often than hitting the miracle turn card.

Obviously there are hundreds of other scenarios as well, but very few involve the 22 winning a big pot. The flop may come JT3 and he folds to a c-bet, hence losing a small pot. But Hero might not have AA either he could have just bluffed him off with a c-bet - which is a much easier thing to do when you've been the aggressor pre-flop. 

 

KAM99

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

Look at it from the villain's perspective. Pre: He limps under the gun then calls a small raise: he's looking to see a flop with implied odds. That screams small pair.

 Not UTG, is the CO and not raising there is a mistake with any PP. Only part I agree with is he advertises his hand as being marginal a lot of the time doing this, which is why people will say it is a mistake doubled.

Flop; The flop is 449. He may be good with his deuces, so makes a probe bet of 40p You raise another 88p - are you raising with KQ?/AT?  - maybe your entire range? He doesn't know, so he calls. His deuces will be good here most of the time.

 His donk bet is ok I guess, but the rest of your thoughts aren't that great. Yes, his two's maybe good in lot of cases, but his postion makes his call of the reraise bad. He is not going to see ANY card that makes him feel better about his 22 other than another 2. Every card in the deck is bigger and so will make him feel worse about his hand. Are you suggesting he C/C the turn and river? Or just the turn, or C/F the turn? I mean this is going to be a very leaky play in the long-run, unless he truely has missed and will check it down.

Zeextenr

at least he had a pair!! my kk which I raised pre 4x in pos was called by 2 4 o/s which of course made a fh!   I am beginning to wonder if I should take golf more seriously!

hhyftrftdr

Anyone with half a poker brain will take that post by BigBluster with 7 bags of salt.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

Anyone with half a poker brain will take that post by BigBluster with 7 bags of salt.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I think you completely missed the point. I never made any claims that the villain's play was in any way optimal. What I tried to do was put it from the villain's viewpoint - how a less experienced player might think, how a less experienced player might make decisions, how a less experienced might, for example, "think his deuces are good". It is very easy to criticise his play, but I thought that viewing it how he might see it would add some value to the discussion.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)? : I think you completely missed the point. I never made any claims that the villain's play was in any way optimal. What I tried to do was put it from the villain's viewpoint - how a less experienced player might think, how a less experienced player might make decisions, how a less experienced might, for example, "think his deuces are good". It is very easy to criticise his play, but I thought that viewing it how he might see it would add some value to the discussion.
Posted by BigBluster

You said there was only one major mistake in the hand, and it wasn't by the villain. I'd say there were numerous mistakes by the villain, but what do I know eh?

BorinLoner

Limping pre-flop is definitely a mistake by the villain.


Am I the only one that thinks flatting the flop is the best line?


What range do we think the villain is donking with? There are no draws on the flop and we know he's unlikely to have limped TT+. When we raise we give the villain a great chance to fold all his low pairs and his air and make it easy for him to stack us in the unlikely scenario of him having a 4 or 99.

I flat the flop to let him put more money in on the turn with his 9x, low pairs and air. If we raise, it seems that we're trying to get value only from an opponent stationing us down. As it happens, that's what he did on the flop, but we don't appear to have that read prior to this hand... unless I've missed that information somewhere.

streetdog

I really appreciate all this input guys, I thought I might just get a load of people telling me I'm an idiot! Anyway my thinking at the time was this and I realise there are holes in my thinking to an extent but...
He limps, I want money in the pot so I raise him pre (granted not a big raise) he calls. The flop comes down and he donk bets. The timer is running, I figure raise him up and see what he does. I figure if he has nothing he folds, if he has A9 or A4 he calls. On the turn a 2 lands, I assume that nothing has changed. He bets out again, I figure he could be doing this with A9 as he could assume that if I have AK or AQ I would reraise the flop to see if he folds because I thought his donk bet was to try and rep the 9 or the 4's when in fact he had called pre with A10 or something. Here I think is my first betting mistake. If I had raised him again and he had nothing or even A9 then maybe he would have folded. If he had called that raise or shoved there then I have to figure he's got the set of 4's or possibly a FH with pocket 9's (less likely). Either way I have to smell a rat. Instead like an idiot because I'm not sure and starting to worry about the 9's or A4 I call. Now I've put in another quid and got no more info than I had before and shown that I'm unsure (maybe?). The river hits and it's a J and he shoves. I'm fairly sure I can rule out pocket J's. In my head I have AA and I completely ignore that I was cautious on the turn and now decide that he just has big balls and thinks his A9 is good. I figure that even if he has J9 and improved his two pairs he could maybe think that if I have pocket 10's he's in front and also with AQ AK. I also figure that if I was him and had the nuts then I wouldn't shove in case I got a fold, I would make decent raise and hope for a call or a reraise as I had already done. I call. It was dumb. As someone else pointed out when did anyone raise twice the pot with a bluff? I wonder had I raised the turn and got a call would I have been convinced that he had me beat? Obv not with a set of 2's but beat all the same. The last few days I have realised that I call too many river bets because i'm sure that they "can't have it again!" and they almost always do

hhyftrftdr

Although the river bet is pretty polarising, the villain strikes me (from what little info I have on him from this thread), as the type of player who may well over value certain hands. I think J9 is certainly a potential hand here, and would fit the story too.

Basically by the river he either has J9 or the 4. Maybe, just maybe, they will also show up with KK/QQ from time to time. I wouldn't beat yourself up for making the call. I think most players would at 10nl, then kick yourself when the pot goes over to them. 

KAM99

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)?:

In Response to Re: What could I have done here(other than fold obviously!)? : I think you completely missed the point. I never made any claims that the villain's play was in any way optimal. What I tried to do was put it from the villain's viewpoint - how a less experienced player might think, how a less experienced player might make decisions, how a less experienced might, for example, "think his deuces are good". It is very easy to criticise his play, but I thought that viewing it how he might see it would add some value to the discussion.
Posted by BigBluster

Rarely worth commenting on the villian in any hand that much unless it is relevant to the hero's line etc. Certainly at the low limits it's never worth it as you expect fishy play at that level. It's not a slight, just a statement of fact that you'll get people making mistakes because they don't know any better yet. Doesn't need looking at much more than that really.