JJ out of position against a solid reg, 4-bet pre...

CLIOKID

CLIOKID	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£82.79
AJ_Rockets	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£53.00
	Your hole cards	J J
Villain	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£54.50
Ludacris	Fold
KILEM	Fold
CLIOKID	Raise		£4.25	£6.50	£78.54
AJ_Rockets	Fold
Villain	Raise		£12.50	£19.00	£42.00

What do you do here folks?

Slipwater

Flat. Assess on the flop.

Lambert180

This is why you need reads. Against alot of regs this is a snap fold imo, depends how good the reg is.

Never 5betting though

BigBluster

You haven't got the odds to set mine, so the question is: do you want to play your hand for high?

As the villain is a solid reg, surely it must be a fold?

KAM99

THink lot of times this is a fold. Really depends on reads, and information you have on him. He is UTG (albeit 5-handed) and then is 4bettign you. Not sure I love our postion at this point. If you think he is doing this with low range like JJ+, AKo then you're only about 36% equity and OOP. So it's a hand that could cost plenty to find out.

So for me I'm never raising here, flatting if I can put him on a range lower than this maybe, but generally given the postion and his I'm folding readless.

Slipwater

So the consensus is that a pre-flop four-bet in a cash game has to be QQ and above?

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: JJ out of position against a solid reg, 4-bet pre...:

So the consensus is that a pre-flop four-bet in a cash game has to be QQ and above?
Posted by Slipwater

No. You can't generalise like that.

However,
i) The only read we have on villain is "solid" by which most people mean tight. So that strengthens his range.
ii) He's UTG, which strengthens his opening range.
iii) We're in the blinds, which strengthens our 3-bet range.
iv) He's 4-bet chunkily against a 3-bet from the blinds, which strengthens his range.


We should know what we're going to do when facing a 4-bet before we make our 3-bet.


The first two of these elements are present before we make our 3-bet, which probably should indicate that we should flat and play a flop rather than 3-bet our JJ. If villain can't continue with many hands we beat when we 3-bet but always continues with everything that beats us, we can't realistically 3-bet profitably. We need to believe that the villain is going to flat our 3-bet or 4-bet with a wide range.


However, even if we think we've made a mistake by 3-betting, we're here now and need to make a decision. So, does this villain 4-bet light, in light of our OOP 3-bet? What's our perceived range for 3-betting vs his UTG raise?

Generally, without more information than "solid" this is a fold. We shouldn't put ourselves in this situation in future.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: JJ out of position against a solid reg, 4-bet pre...:

So the consensus is that a pre-flop four-bet in a cash game has to be QQ and above?
Posted by Slipwater

Occasionally it'll be AK too

But seriously, most cash regs at this level, when they 4bet from UTG it's pretty much exclusively actually KK+ and maybe AKs (AKo at a real stretch). 

Most reg's wouldn't 4bet QQ (at least not against another reg) because what worse hands will they get action from? AK or JJ? that's about it if you're really lucky, so they're just gonna make a ton of the villian's 3bet range fold which can include all sorts ATs+, 99/TT, lots of random stuff like 89s etc. and leave themselves getting action from a tiny range they beat and a tiny range that has them crushed.

Slipwater

I guess at 50NL, you're right.

KAM99

In Response to Re: JJ out of position against a solid reg, 4-bet pre...:

So the consensus is that a pre-flop four-bet in a cash game has to be QQ and above?
Posted by Slipwater

Nope, but taking out the hands he may raise pre-flop UTG (MP at best given 5-handed) and his range shrinks a bit, and so makes his 4-bet -at least readless- credible. Then it's down to his 4bet range we think we can give him. If we think we can give him lighter than this then sure you'll be in it equity wise if we give him 99+, AQo, AJs+.

Let me ask y ou this. If we credit him as midpostion, and give him a range of say 22+, connectors 56s+, one gappes Q10s+, QJ0s+, KJos+, A9os+, A8s+. That's about 20% of his range, how big a range you think he might 4bet with with no reads? Just curious.

Just readless I'm halfl feeling like a call here is set-mining at a horrible price a lot of the time  given being OOP and his openign postion. Going to see a lot of flops I don't like, and ones I do I still likely facing a big cbet with no better idea where I am.

LARSON7

Clio at the lower levels, it would most times (against most opponents) be a fold.

At 50nl, it depends on the opponents. If it's a tight player just fold.

77Chris91

Given your positions, villain's 4-bet is heavily weighted towards nutted hands AK/QQ+ Villain is just gonna flat all his hands that play well IP against your SB 3-betting range. If the villain is aggro he may 4-bet stuff like KJo, AJo etc. Hands with blockers that don't play that well postflop against your range. (majority of tight regs might just fold these)

Even a half competent reg is gonna own you in position if you flat here pre.

CLIOKID

I've not played much in the last couple of years, only been playing a bit the last week or so, not got many reads on the guy other than he seems to play pretty well/straight forward.

I did fold but just never sure if that's too weak.

I don't feel a call is any good as any flop other than J high isn't going to make me feel much better and I think an all-in I'm probably racing at best.

F_Ivanovic

As Borin said you should have 3bet with a plan. If reg is solid then we should probably just flat pre with JJ rather than 3bet because against his continuing range JJ doesn't fair too well. If, however he's not that solid and you think he's still opening fairly wide UTG and/or flatting 3bets wide then the 3bet is fine.