Bluffing my money away

salazar

Hero 10-9 (button)  Villain AK (bb) 

Was the villain right to call and was this double barrel on the turn and river ever going to work? The board finished with 4 spades and villain didn't have one.

and History #743243216 (22:49 09/02/2014)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceleedsdan27Big blind £0.10£0.10£9.75 Your hole cards109   VINEY73Fold    angermooseFold    salazarRaise £0.30£0.40£11.35leedsdan27Raise £0.80£1.20£8.95salazarCall £0.60£1.80£10.75Flop  K8J   leedsdan27Bet £0.90£2.70£8.05salazarCall £0.90£3.60£9.85Turn  5   leedsdan27Check    salazarBet £1.80£5.40£8.05leedsdan27Call £1.80£7.20£6.25River  A   leedsdan27Check    salazarBet £3.00£10.20£5.05leedsdan27Call £3.00£13.20£3.25salazarShow109   leedsdan27ShowKA   leedsdan27WinTwo Pairs, Aces and Kings£12.21 £15.46

KAM99

Might have worked with more weight behind it, but less than half-pot bet I'm not sure he is folding 2-pair that often. Sure it can look like a value bet like that, but stil for £3.00 I suspect you'll get someone look reasonable amount of the time.

It's not certain based on his turn call taht he calls river with another spade out, but think for that price he will. Great for you if you have the hand to beat him, but...

All things considered though, folding pre-flop to the 3bett is usually a better idea than a fairly dangerous hand like 910os So often you'll end up with the idiot end of a straight with this hand to someone with paint, and to a 3bet good chances one pair won't be enough, even though in this case it would have been and they missed.

salazar

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away:

Might have worked with more weight behind it, but less than half-pot bet I'm not sure he is folding 2-pair that often. Sure it can look like a value bet like that, but stil for £3.00 I suspect you'll get someone look reasonable amount of the time. It's not certain based on his turn call taht he calls river with another spade out, but think for that price he will. Great for you if you have the hand to beat him, but...
Posted by KAM99

Yes. I did think about shoving him but thought that might look more of a bluff than what I did, I thought this amount looked like a value bet and would be more likely to get a fold. Starting to think if I made it £5 then it might have worked

TeddyBloat

Great spot to overbet / jam,  sure it looks bluffy, but so what even a straight is merely a bluff catcher, hell even the 9 of spades is bluff catching. We have lots of nines, tens and queens in our range, often one of them will be spades. he has lots of aces and kings in his range, none of them can be spades.

Jam and put him to the test. 

KAM99

Note of warning to the overbet or jam idea though. Not sure I advise this cold with no reads. Could easy be doing it into a station. Lost count of times I've stupidly done it on a table and found out withint a further few hands that I did it into a guy playing crazy number of hands and calling down any pair regardless. Sure you wouldn't in that extreme, but lot of stations that will call. Maybe not the shove though, as thats tough without a spade of reasonable size.

77Chris91

Fold to the 3-bet pre... There are much better hands to defend with Btn v Blinds to a 3-bet. (Can't see sizings so if it's like clicked back call is fine).

As played check turn... Bet like 70% pot on river.

Jamming narrows your range to Qs or air. A more standard bet sizing allows you to keep Js/10s in your perceived range which will make it harder for the villain to call/will make you bluffs significantly cheaper over time.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away:

Fold to the 3-bet pre... There are much better hands to defend with Btn v Blinds to a 3-bet. (Can't see sizings so if it's like clicked back call is fine). As played check turn... Bet like 70% pot on river. Jamming narrows your range to Qs or air. A more standard bet sizing allows you to keep Js/10s in your perceived range which will make it harder for the villain to call/will make you bluffs significantly cheaper over time.
Posted by 77Chris91

The pot is bigger than the effective stack. Might as well be a shove if we're betting river.


Why check the turn, though? The turn has brought in a draw and the villain has checked it. We've surely got to take a stab at winning this pot now. Otherwise we really have made a big mistake peeling pre-flop and calling the flop. We need to be able to win the pot without hitting our hand. This is a great opportunity to semi-bluff on a texture altering turn.


As for pre-flop, it really depends on the dynamic between us and the villain. If the villain hasn't been 3-betting us light then we really should just fold. As said above, we want to exploit our position to be able to bluff or semi-bluff post-flop in order to make peeling this type of hand profitable. If villain has a nutted 3-bet range, it's going to be tough to make him fold.

leedsdan27

May I ask what is forum ettiquette on leaving villain's names in without their prior knowledge??

although my 2 pair was nothing more than a bluff catcher, it was too small a bet not to look you up, although I was very, very close to a fold. I'd have folded to a bet of £5/6+, but may have "hero" called a shove (depending on how much I'd had to drink!!) feeling you were then polarised to Qs or nothing.

gl at the tables!!

salazar

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away:

May I ask what is forum ettiquette on leaving villain's names in without their prior knowledge?? although my 2 pair was nothing more than a bluff catcher, it was too small a bet not to look you up, although I was very, very close to a fold. I'd have folded to a bet of £5/6+, but may have "hero" called a shove (depending on how much I'd had to drink!!) feeling you were then polarised to Qs or nothing. gl at the tables!!
Posted by leedsdan27

I've no idea what the ettiquette is on showing the villain's name. I use common sense most of the time and remove the name if I think it may embarrass the villain. I didn't think this did. I bluffed, you called, and you got the money. 

Salazar

hhyftrftdr

Name is usually removed so people can give a reply without being potentially swayed in thought process should it be a 'villain' they play regularly. 

This isn't a must however. Only real ettiquette is to not leave the name in if we are to go to town on their play.

leedsdan27

No worries, thanks, glad i wasn't seen as a raging calling station!!

Was a genuine question as oppossed to a sarcastic reply, I'm a long time lurker on this forum so thought I may as well make my 1st post on the 1st hand i'm mentioned in

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away:

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away : The pot is bigger than the effective stack. Might as well be a shove if we're betting river. Why check the turn, though? The turn has brought in a draw and the villain has checked it. We've surely got to take a stab at winning this pot now. Otherwise we really have made a big mistake peeling pre-flop and calling the flop. We need to be able to win the pot without hitting our hand. This is a great opportunity to semi-bluff on a texture altering turn. As for pre-flop, it really depends on the dynamic between us and the villain. If the villain hasn't been 3-betting us light then we really should just fold. As said above, we want to exploit our position to be able to bluff or semi-bluff post-flop in order to make peeling this type of hand profitable. If villain has a nutted 3-bet range, it's going to be tough to make him fold.
Posted by BorinLoner

Imo villain is gonna be c/c this turn sooo often. If they had air/semi-bluff they would be betting this turn so it pretty much looks like a K, QQ, AJ etc. If were putting the villain on this sort of range there pretty much never folding the turn. We don't have much equity when called. If we take a free card we can either hit our hand or use our positional advantage to take the pot away on favourable rivers (Spade, J etc.)

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away:

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away : Imo villain is gonna be c/c this turn sooo often. If they had air/semi-bluff they would be betting this turn so it pretty much looks like a K, QQ, AJ etc. If were putting the villain on this sort of range there pretty much never folding the turn. We don't have much equity when called. If we take a free card we can either hit our hand or use our positional advantage to take the pot away on favourable rivers (Spade, J etc.)
Posted by 77Chris91

Well, there are some better hands that are going to check-fold this turn that might have 3-bet pre-flop: AT, AQ, 99, TT, possibly AJ as well as any pure air hands the villain was 3-betting because it's btn v blind..It's also much more difficult for a Jx hand or even some Kx hands to call turn and river when we double-barrel. If we check, it's much easier for villain to check-call dry rivers with his Kx or strong Jx hands.

We'd bet most of our strong hands when checked to on this turn. Are we checking back two-pair here? Probably not.


There are some hands that check-call the turn but not nearly as many can check-call turn and river. I'd also debate whether a semi-bluff or air hand is necessarily going to barrel this turn OOP after having their 3-bet called pre-flop and their c-bet called on KJ8, with the flush draw completing on the turn.

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away:

In Response to Re: Bluffing my money away : Well, there are some better hands that are going to check-fold this turn that might have 3-bet pre-flop: AT, AQ, 99, TT, possibly AJ as well as any pure air hands the villain was 3-betting because it's btn v blind..It's also much more difficult for a Jx hand or even some Kx hands to call turn and river when we double-barrel. If we check, it's much easier for villain to check-call dry rivers with his Kx or strong Jx hands. We'd bet most of our strong hands when checked to on this turn. Are we checking back two-pair here? Probably not. There are some hands that check-call the turn but not nearly as many can check-call turn and river. I'd also debate whether a semi-bluff or air hand is necessarily going to barrel this turn OOP after having their 3-bet called pre-flop and their c-bet called on KJ8, with the flush draw completing on the turn.
Posted by BorinLoner

A10, AQ are likely to fire another barrel on this turn... 99/1010 may not even 3-bet. If the villain has picked up a decent flush draw there pretty much always barrelling this turn.

Not sure which 2 pair your referring to... as there is only really KJ (Would probably get this in on the flop.)

Imo villain's range is pretty face up on this turn. A large % of the time it's a hand with decent showdown value that can't bet. If we think there gonna c/c a large % of the time then betting with this little equity just seems a bit spewy.

Imo with our positional advantage we can win this pot on a lot of rivers. Sometimes we don't have to empty the clip to win the hand.