is the pot size bet the right thing to do even if they do fold?

craigcu12

when i have a small or middle pair and see the raise being made by a weak passive player i sometime will be thinking to myself weather or not to bother calling it because with sets the aim really is to get as much into the pot as possible but if i'm going to get checked by him then i seem to have only one choice and that is hit the pot size bet.


the truth is with the aggressive type if he doesn't cbet then i know on a board like this one he is unlikely to call a large bet.
but with passive types they just don't bet often enough so i am left to just guess what they have really so while he might fold his weaker hands, are sets just too strong to be wasted by weak betting?

x	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£24.57
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£18.95
	Your hole cards	10 10
	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£19.55
calcalfold	Fold
rickylad24	Fold
x	Raise		£0.45	£0.90	£24.12
craigcu12	Call		£0.40	£1.30	£18.55
	Call		£0.20	£1.50	£19.35
Flop
		5 10 J
x	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£1.50	£3.00	£17.05
	Call		£1.50	£4.50	£17.85
x	Call		£1.50	£6.00	£22.62
Turn
		8
x	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£6.00	£12.00	£11.05
	Fold
x	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£5.55		£16.60
craigcu12	Return		£6.00	£0.45	£22.60

salazar

The right size bet is the maximum amount your opponent will pay when they have the losing hand. I always edge on the larger size as I hate it when they call and I know they would have called for a lot more when i see their hand. I suppose you have to do some guess work and judge what people are holding and how much they will pay

That applies more to a river bet though, in this situation with a draw heavy board, straightning and flushing then pot seems right, you want to make them pay to see. 

you might not want to pot it on a dry board but I think it's fine here. 

hhyftrftdr

Much better cash game players than me will give some advice, but all I can really add is that I'm not a big fan of simply mashing the 'pot' button. Suggests that you're not really giving serious consideration as to the right amount to bet. 

I would say we're correct to bet big on the turn, especially after 2 calls on a very draw heavy flop. Pot just might be a bit OTT, and reduces the opportunity for someone to either make a move on us or feel priced in to call with whatever draw they may have.

DOHHHHHHH

Want to be looking to set up a river shove Craig.

You're unlikely to get action again from both players, so betting £4.50 and getting 1 call would leave us with £12.50 left, and a potsize of £15 going into the river, which is a comfortable shove for us on most river cards. 

---------------

It isn't necessarily always best to bet big on wet boards, we're looking for value from the weaker end of players ranges.

Say we hold AJ here, we want calls from KJ, QJ, AT, 9T, as well as flush draws and straight draws.

Betting big blasts out a lot of this range that we're ahead of, and which might otherwise call a smaller bet and leaves us playing against the stronger hands in villains range, a lot of which will be in good shape or even ahead of us already.  

It's something to think about/work on.

Still, I'd always prefer a player to bet too big than too small at micro stakes, so if in doubt, betting pot for value isn't a bad default option in game.

KAM99

Kind of agree with the above post. I have no issue with leading out here, as the board is very wet vs 2 players. Also the size of bet as pot is fine for the same reason.

Turn I likely bet slightly less. Vary between 60-75% of pot. Partly cus I can still get it in on river if need be with 75%, and also partly as I don't want to totally scare off someone holding the jack, and partly because it is possible they called with KQ straight draw. KQ is less of a reason, but it is a consideration given have to think about what their hand is to some degree.

Given action and his fold, AK seems most likely so I doubt you get called no matter what, but...

77Chris91

Flop - Pot bet 4-way is fine. Especially at these stakes.

Turn - 4.75ish is fine. We don't want folds when we hold the effective nuts.

craigcu12

today i tried to go for a slightly less approach knowing that a full pot bet got these two to fold their hand and it did work on the turn.

when i did the betting with 1010 what i didn't take into account was my decision to just call preflop so they know right away that i haven't got overpairs and it's true if i had AJ their is no way i would do a bet of that size on the turn when it's so dangerous unless it was AdJd.

here are my sets today and how i played them.

BWats	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£20.11
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£32.98
	Your hole cards	Q Q
x	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£9.89
haidyboy	Fold
BLUCHERBOY	Fold
emdeepiggy	Fold
BWats	Call		£0.05	£0.30	£20.06
craigcu12	Raise		£0.40	£0.70	£32.58
x	Call		£0.40	£1.10	£9.49
BWats	Call		£0.40	£1.50	£19.66
Flop
		6 3 Q
BWats	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£0.70	£2.20	£31.88
x	Call		£0.70	£2.90	£8.79
BWats	Fold
Turn
		10
craigcu12	Bet		£2.00	£4.90	£29.88
x	Call		£2.00	£6.90	£6.79
River
		7
craigcu12	Bet		£4.00	£10.90	£25.88
x	Call		£4.00	£14.90	£2.79
craigcu12	Show	Q Q
x	Muck	8 Q
craigcu12	Win	Three Queens	£13.78		£39.66

x	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£9.85
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£9.50
	Your hole cards	7 7
haidyboy	Fold
Wakey_S	Fold
x	Raise		£0.25	£0.40	£9.60
craigcu12	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£9.30
Flop
		A 8 7
x	Bet		£0.30	£0.90	£9.30
craigcu12	Call		£0.30	£1.20	£9.00
Turn
		2
x	Bet		£0.40	£1.60	£8.90
craigcu12	Raise		£1.10	£2.70	£7.90
x	Call		£0.70	£3.40	£8.20
River
		7
x	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£3.40	£6.80	£4.50
x	Call		£3.40	£10.20	£4.80
craigcu12	Show	7 7
x	Show	J J
craigcu12	Win	Four 7s	£9.43		£13.93

hhyftrftdr

Nice hands Craig.

In that first one, I'm going for his stack on the river so I think I'd just move all in.

Difficult to get his stack on that 2nd hand, but it's a spot where an overbet on the river might just get paid. Had it been an early position raise pre, then I'd look to get more money in on the flop, but with it being blind on blind, I'd say you got the max or close enough.

Easy game eh