DYM tough spots

Sky_Poker

A thread to post and discuss hands from DYMs...

belsibub

My post?

DoubleAAA

btn 5351
sb 927
bb 1975 Hero
utg 3297

Blinds 150/300
Your hole cards AdKd
Sb posts 150, BB posts 300, utg folds, Btn All In 5371, sb folds, bb Hero?

In this situation with us being the bb, do we call?  Also, what is our range for calling here?

fwiw, this is just a scenario I have made up just to get this thread going.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

btn 5351 sb 927 bb 1975 Hero utg 3297 Blinds 150/300 Your hole cards AdKd Sb posts 150, BB posts 300, utg folds, Btn All In 5371, sb folds, bb Hero? In this situation with us being the bb, do we call?  Also, what is our range for calling here? fwiw, this is just a scenario I have made up just to get this thread going.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Conventional wisdom says we have to call, we have AK.

Me? Nah, I think I let it go, we can find better spots if we need to. The SB has just over 2 Bigs after Posting his SB, he's very vulnerable.

In these things I think it is SO important to be "stack aware", & try to find the path of least resistance. I'd MUCH rather be the shover than the Caller. I'd be happy to shove here if we were first to act, though. Not so much call, though.

I just think shoving is SO much better than calling here. We probably don't get called 60 to 70% of the time, & if we do, we can't be in bad shape.

FOLD

PS - The kids will not like that.....;)

FCHD

I'm very much a "fold" person in that situation too, if it was the Small Blind shoving then yes, I'd call, but with AK in that spot you're probably flipping at best and I reckon you have a better than 50% chance of cashing if you pass this one.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

I'm very much a "fold" person in that situation too, if it was the Small Blind shoving then yes, I'd call, but with AK in that spot you're probably flipping at best and I reckon you have a better than 50% chance of cashing if you pass this one.
Posted by FCHD

Yes.

I think, in these spots, we throw away the textbook as to ranges & the like, & instead look "wider", at where we are in the SNG.

Why go to war when we don't need to?

Why call when we'd rather open?

So often, it's not about hand v hand, its more a case of being aware of what everyone else has, the stack dynamic.

In poker, as in life, WE should choose when we go to war, not do so on someone else's terms. I want to be the shover, not the caller, the boys are going to have to play me on MY terms, when it suits ME.

Calling with the AK is not terrible, but I'd just fold.

Better to shove with a lesser hand thast be a caller, imo.  

DoubleAAA

So what would be your calling range in this situation? QQ+?

salazar

I think it's a fold in a double your money and a call in a normal SNG. Or atleast that is how I would do it. 

Similar spot yesterday in a freeroll MTT. 5 people get a seat in a £10 MTT and there were 10 left. I'm the big stack and on the button, I shove with AQ, the short stack folds in the SB and the guy who was in 3rd place calls with AK.

It worked out for him, he doubled up and I became a short stack. He did risk going out though when he didn't need to. I was quite suprised he called even with the hand he had when he probably could have folded his way to a prize. Still the same could have been said for me

Sky_Poker

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

btn 5351 sb 927 bb 1975 Hero utg 3297 Blinds 150/300 Your hole cards AdKd Sb posts 150, BB posts 300, utg folds, Btn All In 5371, sb folds, bb Hero? In this situation with us being the bb, do we call?  Also, what is our range for calling here? fwiw, this is just a scenario I have made up just to get this thread going.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Perfect example, thank you.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

So what would be your calling range in this situation? QQ+?
Posted by DoubleAAA

I suppose so, almost reluctantly, yes. Not with any great enthusiasm though. OK, we are 95% sure our hand is ahead, but there are such things as ouutdraws. I never get outdrawn when I force them all to fold pre..... 

I know it sounds silly, but I just think we get such an advantage by being the shover not the caller. The difference in DYM's is huge. We don't need much of a hand to shove, either.
 
So yes, I'd obv call with Q-Q, but I'd rather shove with far less.   

Tikay10

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

I think it's a fold in a double your money and a call in a normal SNG. Or atleast that is how I would do it.  Similar spot yesterday in a freeroll MTT. 5 people get a seat in a £10 MTT and there were 10 left. I'm the big stack and on the button, I shove with AQ, the short stack folds in the SB and the guy who was in 3rd place calls with AK. It worked out for him, he doubled up and I became a short stack. He did risk going out though when he didn't need to. I was quite suprised he called even with the hand he had when he probably could have folded his way to a prize. Still the same could have been said for me
Posted by salazar

100% all of that. I'd much rather shove with AQ than call with AK.

Thoich

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

So what would be your calling range in this situation? QQ+?
Posted by DoubleAAA

I will no doubt get called a nit here but my calling range in that spot would be AA only. 

Even with KK vs Ax you will lose ~30%, and you are not always gauretneed to cash if you double up in this spot (although very likely). 

Whereas if you just nit it up you chances of losing is probably lower than 30% (there's some ICM math that can be applied here but I have no idea how to do it) 

Incidently there are some spots where even AA might be a correct fold on DYM bubbles. For example:

Blinds 100/200

UTG: 300

BU: 450

SB: 3500

BB (hero): 1750

If SB shoves here I would for sure be folding AA. Whether this is the correct play or not I am not sure..?

Sky_Poker

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots : I will no doubt get called a nit here but my calling range in that spot would be AA only.  Even with KK vs Ax you will lose ~30%, and you are not always gauretneed to cash if you double up in this spot (although very likely).  Whereas if you just nit it up you chances of losing is probably lower than 30% (there's some ICM math that can be applied here but I have no idea how to do it)  Incidently there are some spots where even AA might be a correct fold on DYM bubbles. For example: Blinds 100/200 UTG: 300 BU: 450 SB: 3500 BB (hero): 1750 If SB shoves here I would for sure be folding AA. Whether this is the correct play or not I am not sure..?
Posted by Thoich

This would be a very interesting spot for sure!

gerardirl

Depends how btn has been playing, if he raised alot Im calling if he wasnt raising alot Im folding.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

For example: Blinds 100/200 UTG: 300 BU: 450 SB: 3500 BB (hero): 1750 If SB shoves here I would for sure be folding AA. Whether this is the correct play or not I am not sure..?
Posted by Thoich

We have a situation whereby both btn and utg have ~1bb left and utg will be posting his big blind next hand.  Snap fold!  We do not need to get involved and put our dym life on the line just to collect an extra 8bbs.

Thoich

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots : We have a situation whereby both btn and utg have ~1bb left and utg will be posting his big blind next hand.  Snap fold!
Posted by DoubleAAA

Yeah I think my example was a bit too obvious of an example. I wonder what size stacks btn and utg need for it to be less of a snap fold.

If they have 2 bigs and we have 7, def still folding.

If they have 3 bigs and we have 6, not so sure.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots : Yeah I think my example was a bit too obvious of an example. I wonder what size stacks btn and utg need for it to be less of a snap fold. If they have 2 bigs and we have 7, def still folding. If they have 3 bigs and we have 6, not so sure.
Posted by Thoich

I think I'm still folding as the 'utg' will be posting his bb next leaving him with just 2bbs whilst we still have 6bbs and we may have the opportunity to shove our sb into his bb, providing nobody else has already opened.  If he were to call and we lost, well, we would now have 4bbs and he would also have 4bbs with the other guy on 3bbs.

ICM will be really close for either a call/fold.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

btn 5351 sb 927 bb 1975 Hero utg 3297 Blinds 150/300 Your hole cards AdKd Sb posts 150, BB posts 300, utg folds, Btn All In 5371, sb folds, bb Hero? In this situation with us being the bb, do we call?  Also, what is our range for calling here? fwiw, this is just a scenario I have made up just to get this thread going.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Close spot. It's more about figuring out what equity we reckon we'd need to call here. If we call and win, then we should assume we're going to cash 95% of the time. So suppose we have 60% equity then by calling we are guaranteed to cash 57% of the time but we will also go out 40% of the time. That means for folding to be correct we need to know that by folding we will cash more than 40% of the time. SB is short but one double up and we are level. Also next hand SB is BTN and can shove and increase his stack to just shy of 1400 with us down to 1825 if neither us or UTG pick up a hand we want to call with. Thus I estimate our cashing chances of being close to 40% if we fold now. Meaning with 60% equity it's a decision we could go either way with.

With AK against a loosish shoving range of 88+, KJ, KQ, A8+ we have around 60% equity. So if you think they are shoving even looser than this then you I would definitely call. With QQ against the same range we have 65% equity and so with QQ I think it has to be a call. Both KK and AA are easy calls because we have over 70% equity with both hands and I don't think we can cash at least 30% of the time if we fold here. 

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots : Close spot. It's more about figuring out what equity we reckon we'd need to call here. If we call and win, then we should assume we're going to cash 95% of the time. So suppose we have 60% equity then by calling we are guaranteed to cash 57% of the time but we will also go out 40% of the time. That means for folding to be correct we need to know that by folding we will cash more than 40% of the time. SB is short but one double up and we are level. Also next hand SB is BTN and can shove and increase his stack to just shy of 1400 with us down to 1825 if neither us or UTG pick up a hand we want to call with. Thus I estimate our cashing chances of being close to 40% if we fold now. Meaning with 60% equity it's a decision we could go either way with. With AK against a loosish shoving range of 88+, KJ, KQ, A8+ we have around 60% equity. So if you think they are shoving even looser than this then you I would definitely call. With QQ against the same range we have 65% equity and so with QQ I think it has to be a call. Both KK and AA are easy calls because we have over 70% equity with both hands and I don't think we can cash at least 30% of the time if we fold here. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I just ran this exact scenario using ICM poker calculator, with the btn shoving 100% hands and it says that we can only profitably call with KK+ and KK is marginal.  If we call off with AKs we are losing -3.92 which is very big.

Here is the link http://www.icmpoker.com/icmizer/#cepJ

Here is the link for if btn is pushing only 25% http://www.icmpoker.com/icmizer/#JsSu

F_Ivanovic

Really? Interesting. Surely BTN can massively exploit this by shoving every hand though?  I struggle to see how QQ is a fold if BTN is shoving 100%. I mean QQ has 80% equity vs a 100% range which means if we call with QQ we are going to cash (lets be a bit more pessimistic and say calling means we only cash 80% of the time) Then calling means we cash 66% of the time. Surely we have less than 66% chance of cashing if we fold in this spot?

Thoich

Great website there, and interesting result. shame you can only do 3 searches a day! When it says -3.92 is that reffering to BBs? Very interesting that AK is that big of a mistake.

I guess it does mean we are very easy to exploit, but I guess it would take a very long time for btn to work out our calling range was so narrow (unless he reads this).

F_Ivanovic

Technically it should be that BTN can't exploit this fact because SB will just be able to call really wide and show a profit.

DoubleAAA

The thing is Ivanovic, we only need to survive, not accumulate.  If you look at the links you'll see what our +/- edge is.

alex1229

Its a good question. But with the level of play you see in the DYM's i would find it very hard to fold QQ, it does depend on the person though, even if i didnt have notes then a quick look on mr sharkscope will give me what i need to know

Tsaaaar

of course its exploitable its a dym bubble the big stack should be shoving 100% of hands

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: DYM tough spots:

of course its exploitable its a dym bubble the big stack should be shoving 100% of hands
Posted by Tsaaaar

Well this is just not true at all and the big stack would be making a mistake by doing so. He can fold his way to cash 95% of the time at least. But when he shoves 100% of the time SB (shortstack) is obliged to call him incredibly wide (I'd estimate with 75% of hands) - now why would big stack risk 20% of his stack to potentially bust someone then when he can cash just by folding? If he loses that hand and then loses another pot now with someone on 2k chips he suddenly finds himself right back in the mix and potentially as the short stack.

So even though BTN can exploit us, he shouldn't try and be exploiting us because it's -ev for him and +ev for the shorty.