Line check

jams88

what do we think of my general line on this hand?  Btn is newish to the table not seen anything strange going on yet. Not sure I would have questioned this if I had had a winning session but as I didn't looking through could have maybe saved money here? could c/c river to but I think that allows to many a10 k10 hands to check behind?

feel free to pick apart and insult as you like

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jams88	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£18.80
crash48	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£14.58
	Your hole cards	8 J
ulsterfr30	Fold
BigM19	Fold
wayne22827	Fold
Did	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£40.51
jams88	Call		£0.50	£1.40	£18.30
crash48	Call		£0.40	£1.80	£14.18
Flop
		5 4 10
jams88	Check
crash48	Check
He	Bet		£1.35	£3.15	£39.16
jams88	Call		£1.35	£4.50	£16.95
crash48	Fold
Turn
		J
jams88	Check
Just	Bet		£3.38	£7.88	£35.78
jams88	Raise		£7.76	£15.64	£9.19
Own	Call		£4.38	£20.02	£31.40
River
		9
jams88	All-in		£9.19	£29.21	£0.00
Me	Call		£9.19	£38.40	£22.21
jams88	Show	8 J
?	Show	Q Q
		Pair of Queens	£36.60

golds95

Don't really understand your raise on the turn yes you have a strong hand but you can be playing for stacks on the river anyway if you hit your flush even though it will be a pot bet, you have so many hands that beat you on the river to ship i dont think is the right move but as you raise on the turn you have no option.

77Chris91

Pre - 3-bet or fold. Calling out of the sb with this sort of hand is a leak.

As played c/c flop, c/c turn, c/f river.

Jac35

In Response to Re: Line check:

Pre - 3-bet or fold. Calling out of the sb with this sort of hand is a leak. As played c/c flop, c/c turn, c/f river.
Posted by 77Chris91

Pretty much this

KAM99

Agree with the above, except that you can't do as he says "as played" because that wasn't what happened. It's what should have happened after your call preflop (which wasn't good with a rubbish marginal hand).

If we are talking as played I don't really agree about the river if we take your line up to the turn as played. When he calls your reraise at turn he clearly has a hand that the jack doesn't overly concerrrn him. He might be thinking about sets, but not the jack. This means your river shove is a stone-cold bluff with not a lot of weight behind it. If he calls the turn like he did he isn't in my opinion often going to fold the river when it is a brick. Even if pot odds look good I'm not sure I want to dump off 50% of my stack on a bluff that I think he is calling quite often given his turn call.

Some people won't lay down overpairs, and in my book if they are willing to spend £8 at turn they won't often fold for £9 at river. So in short you ogt stacked playing a hand you could have folded preflop, or at worst 3bet it and folded to the 4bet you would have got. Personally unless he is fairly loose on the button I'd pick fold.

jams88

finding the responses abit odd which doesnt say much for my ability
I'm quite happy with the call preflop tbh we are deep and people are saying its rubbish like its 95o or something. My thinking would be i have a hand that can flop nicely when i call it gives the bb good odds to call so we are liekly taking it 3 way. Obviously oop is a major disadvantage but its a btn open and we have suited gappers. I think i would have preferred a c/c c/c c/c line but maybe i just suck lol

Lambert180

Some of the comments might be a bit harsh. J8s is a nice hand and in some situations it's good/the right thing to do to call in position with it, but OOP we just make our lives hell trying to play any strong made hand, any draw, anything really apart from the times we have to c/f which is easy lol and will happen way too often, unless we bluff lots.

You're not deep in the hand though, it's only 100xBB, standard for cash.

It is a button open which means you can just take it down pre SO often and take down 90p If he peels, he's probably gonna be peeling a wider range on the BTN cos he has position so unless he's getting really tricky with us, he'll probably just c/f a ton of flops.

I don't like raising the turn because we likely have the best hand now but when we raise, we're basically turning it into a semi bluff cos we're gonna struggle to get called by worse. So I'd just flat again knowing we're likely agead, and if not we have plenty of outs.

KAM99

In Response to Re: Line check:

finding the responses abit odd which doesnt say much for my ability I'm quite happy with the call preflop tbh we are deep and people are saying its rubbish like its 95o or something. My thinking would be i have a hand that can flop nicely when i call it gives the bb good odds to call so we are liekly taking it 3 way. Obviously oop is a major disadvantage but its a btn open and we have suited gappers. I think i would have preferred a c/c c/c c/c line but maybe i just suck lol
Posted by jams88

Ok, let me answer this, and clarify my post a little. My rubbish comment was not a reflection of your playy, oly a comment on the hand from that postion as played.

You commetn that the hand is hardly 95os. Well alctually it's not far off.  Being suited only adds about 3% to your overall hand strength, and so a suited bad hand is still a bad hand, it just looks nicer. The difference between 95os and J8s is lilke 4-10% depending on the range villian is given. Specific premium hand is 4% difference and against totally random range it is 10% and you would be marginal favourite. Still taht is only one aspect of this hand.

You can really reverse odds, as you can't be certain BB will call even wtih attractive odds. He could fold, or worse squeeze you both with a 3bet. He knows good chance BTN is weak and you didn't 3bet him so can put you on fairly weak hand too. If you were BB with this hand and in same spot with Btn and SB call then sure good odds with the hand. Also if in CO or BTN it's a hand you can raise with.

Also, if playing this hand, much as you said yourself, you are normally playing it to hit somethign better than a pair, or being careful if playing it with a pair only because of the weak kicker. As stateed above your raise at the turn has only two outcomes. They fold worse and call or shove with better. If they shove wilil barely have the odds to call on your flush draw really, and will know the jack alone isn't good enough.

So, I'm not saying your play is horrible, but just calling with this hand willw ooften end with a C/F on the flop and a wasted bit of cash. This is just my opinion, and if you took it personally due to my choice of words, taht was not my intent at all, and I'm sorry. I just think long-term this can turn into a leaky habit. Raise by all means to test out the BTN, but not so much of a fan of calling with this type of hand OOP.

jams88

In Response to Re: Line check:

In Response to Re: Line check : Ok, let me answer this, and clarify my post a little. My rubbish comment was not a reflection of your playy, oly a comment on the hand from that postion as played. You commetn that the hand is hardly 95os. Well alctually it's not far off.  Being suited only adds about 3% to your overall hand strength, and so a suited bad hand is still a bad hand, it just looks nicer. The difference between 95os and J8s is lilke 4-10% depending on the range villian is given. Specific premium hand is 4% difference and against totally random range it is 10% and you would be marginal favourite. Still taht is only one aspect of this hand. You can really reverse odds, as you can't be certain BB will call even wtih attractive odds. He could fold, or worse squeeze you both with a 3bet. He knows good chance BTN is weak and you didn't 3bet him so can put you on fairly weak hand too. If you were BB with this hand and in same spot with Btn and SB call then sure good odds with the hand. Also if in CO or BTN it's a hand you can raise with. Also, if playing this hand, much as you said yourself, you are normally playing it to hit somethign better than a pair, or being careful if playing it with a pair only because of the weak kicker. As stateed above your raise at the turn has only two outcomes. They fold worse and call or shove with better. If they shove wilil barely have the odds to call on your flush draw really, and will know the jack alone isn't good enough. So, I'm not saying your play is horrible, but just calling with this hand willw ooften end with a C/F on the flop and a wasted bit of cash. This is just my opinion, and if you took it personally due to my choice of words, taht was not my intent at all, and I'm sorry. I just think long-term this can turn into a leaky habit. Raise by all means to test out the BTN, but not so much of a fan of calling with this type of hand OOP.
Posted by KAM99

So 1st part - There are only 4 or 5 people at this level that know what wnoulh 3bet light here imo (and i am 1 of them). Personally i prefer to 3bet a more polarized range if i am 3betting light from the blinds than a suited gapper type hand. I would prefer an A3 or some such which has a blocker and doesnt give us much trouble post flop if we meet resistance.

Imo turn is my worst play c/c seems alot better and i understand why just needed the replys to point it out for me lol

Honestly i don't take anything personally don't worry. i repleyed to explain my thinking so it could be further picked apart if wrong. No point posting in the clinic and then crying when somebody tells you your not perfect

RyanC7

Fold or 3b pre. Fold > 3b > call i think most of the time. Prob just want to be 3betting value hands vs fish here.

Don't like raising turn here either now we have top pair, just bloating the pot for no real reason. Even tho I dont like it probably check call turn and lead river vs fish they wont go for thin value + will check back 100% of the time.

RyanC7

Lead river if you make a flooooosh obv not just with the one pair

KAM99

In Response to Re: Line check:

In Response to Re: Line check : So 1st part - There are only 4 or 5 people at this level that know what wnoulh 3bet light here imo (and i am 1 of them).

Really? Either thats the low player base or the play at this level is pretty low if they will never test out heavy BTN raiser. So you saying everyone at this level only 3bets wtih premium hands here? I mean how do they ever get action? Auto-fold unless you have one as well? Oh well.. I mean you expect it somewhat but I thought more would be able to 3bet light from various postions in some situations. Mind you I ground my way up before sky was really about in any serious way (if it is now) so can't really overly comment on it here.