Pocket Jacks on the button in a BH facing 4 bet shove

LARSON7

Utg plus 1 min raises to 120, blinds are 30 and 60. I have 2.5k, villain has 5k. Starting stack is 2k.

Jacks OTB.

What do you do, call or 3 bet?

I 3 bet, to 240, min raise. Vilian snap shoves, all our chips to call.

What do you do? In a normal MTT it's proba fold, this however is a BH. Not sure what the right decision is.

He snap shoved, that was the main reason I folded. Didn't know much about the player at the time, but later realised he was playing really fishy.

hhyftrftdr

3betting larger, and table dynamic and image will determine if its a call off or not.

Probably call in a vacuum.

Lambert180

As above, prob 3bet to 360 ish and readless in low stakes BH I call

DOHHHHHHH

Prob just flat Jacks pre v utg readless?

Spose call off now we've 3bet. Sucks though.

THEROCK573

you should no what you're next move is before you 3 bet otherwise dont 3 bet.

yoyo

in my experience snap shoves are more likely to be AK's etc rather than made hands such as AA/KK.

it's a gamble with little or no info....do you feel like gambling? 

the fact that he covers us comfortablly might lean my read towards out & out bullying as well - i probably call, happy to take my medicine if he's levelled me with an over-pair, happy to relieve him of the table-captain role if we win a flip or he's out of line.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Pocket Jacks on the button in a BH facing 4 bet shove:

in my experience snap shoves are more likely to be AK's etc rather than made hands such as AA/KK. it's a gamble with little or no info....do you feel like gambling?  the fact that he covers us comfortablly might lean my read towards out & out bullying as well - i probably call, happy to take my medicine if he's levelled me with an over-pair, happy to relieve him of the table-captain role if we win a flip or he's out of line.
Posted by yoyo

yep, definately looks more like a hand that doesnt particularly want to see a flop out of position and obv also isnt afraid to get it in... I agree that you'll be up against AK alot of the time. 

As Rocks said too, before 3betting you need to know what you plan to do vs a 4bet...if your not sure, then just flat.

LARSON7

Thanks everyone.

I like 3 betting jacks here on the button, otherwise we are just set mining with jacks. Quite like the sizing too.

I think at the time I was quite happy with the fold. I took the snap jam as a sign of Queens or better.

AK makes sense too with the speed in which he done it. It makes sense like if he had aces or kings he might dwell up a bit about best way to get value. It could also be he has a far weaked hand than i'm giving him credit for, as in its a BH and he wants the bounty etc etc.

It wasn't easy, my thinking was at the time i'll get better spots.

All that being said, I now think it was a bad fold. For the simple reason reasonable chance i'm not crushed here.

If I was crushed as Julian said so be it.

Cheers everyone

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Pocket Jacks on the button in a BH facing 4 bet shove:

Thanks everyone. I like 3 betting jacks here on the button, otherwise we are just set mining with jacks. Quite like the sizing too. I think at the time I was quite happy with the fold. I took the snap jam as a sign of Queens or better. AK makes sense too with the speed in which he done it. It makes sense like if he had aces or kings he might dwell up a bit about best way to get value. It could also be he has a far weaked hand than i'm giving him credit for, as in its a BH and he wants the bounty etc etc. It wasn't easy, my thinking was at the time i'll get better spots. All that being said, I now think it was a bad fold. For the simple reason reasonable chance i'm not crushed here. If I was crushed as Julian said so be it. Cheers everyone
Posted by LARSON7

Not really.

Think the sizing is pretty poor tbh. Min 3 betting just doesn't do anything. Doesn't build a pot when we have a strong hand, and doesn't 'price out' people when we are raising something more marginal or on the steal. 

If he'd min raised 44 utg, and you min 3bet JJ, he's getting a great price to call with juicy implied odds as well. He either flops the set and potentially stacks you, or doesn't hit and you get no more chips from him.

Wacko90

Sizing of the 3 bet is not good at all really what does it achieve? Why did you 3 bet if when he shoves you now dont know what to do? 

Surely your 3 betting because you want to build a pot with a strong hand, if you dont want to be 4 bet then dont 3 bet! If the player is loose passive or even tight passive then 3 bet is fine as you know more often than not he is going to flat and you can play through the streets. Your 3 bet doesn't really achieve anything, your hardly building a pot and if your keeping it small then you should be doing so to induce a 4 bet which you now have.

In a BH its a call, this early on just flat OTB and play through the streets. Early on in a tourney you need to get reads and gain information on your opponents so I like playing through the streets early on. Now you have 3 bet you really should be calling.

Lambert180

The set mining comment just doesn't make sense and is wrong. Why do we hav to be set mining if we flat? Are we putting them on QQ+ for the open? We flat to keep their range wide if they won't call 3bets light. Assume any reasonable range and think about all the hands a flat keeps in that we crush... J8+, Q8+, A2-AJ, K8+, then stuff like 68s/79o/8To

We can do exactly the same with say 99, flat and play some poker, doesn't mean we fold every non 9xx flop. Even with 99 we'll be ahead of your average opening range here AND we have position.

Batkin88

Prob calling OTB here tbh, if 3 betting you gotta get it in.