First hand of an MTT

Sky_Poker

It's the first hand of a main or mini event and a player goes all in before you. You've never played the person before and so dont know their playing style.

What hand would you need to call here?

Sky_Dave

Well, the obvious answer is Aces.... that aside though, I think it's an interesting one and depends very much on the buy-in levels.

At a lower stake tourney were people might be splashing about a bit more/playing a little 'green', let's say, I would call off with JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AKs and probably AK too. TT and AQs would be contenders, but I think I fold both (especially the AQ as I see people make the shove move with AK far more often).

By the time you work your way up to a £55 ish tourney (Primo, etc), I'd say it has to be AA. KK and possibly QQ. I wouldn't flip the AK first hand.

WSOP Main Event it's AA. KK has to be a call too but I'd weep tears if the guy has super levelled me and has AA for the cooler. (That and I am assuming we're playing 6-max in the previous examples)

I am so going to look like a nit now, right?

yoyo

if i'm honest it depends how important the comp is to me;

if someone 5b shoved in the first hand of the UKPC i'm almost certainly going to fold KK, unless, even from very limited information i just sense they're capable of something extremely frisky - i've witnessed it in the past so you can never rule it out.

online i'm not so disciplined but would def timebank QQ/AKs, maybe even JJ; 

hey, i have a sometimes-spewy rep to uphold!

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

if i'm honest it depends how important the comp is to me; if someone 5b shoved in the first hand of the UKPC i'm almost certainly going to fold KK, unless, even from very limited information i just sense they're capable of something extremely frisky - i've witnessed it in the past so you can never rule it out. online i'm not so disciplined but would def timebank QQ/AKs, maybe even JJ;  hey, i have a sometimes-spewy rep to uphold!
Posted by yoyo

if you were going to fold to a 5bet, wouldnt you just flat the 3bet with KK?

do they open shove? or do you get into a raising war?

is it a rebuy?

assuming they open shove, and its the main or mini on Sky, I'd call with QQ+ and AK

yoyo

yeah no idea of precise betting-lines, was just plucking it out of thin air - i mean a reasonable 5b might only be 1500 out of a 30k stack (50/125/350/850/1500) which i'm always only ever flatting.

MattBates

I would rather make a nitty fold and find out later they were a maniac and were shipping light rather than lose first hand. Its only one hand and assuming the structure is good we will find loads of good spots to chip up

BigBluster

Unless it's a bounty hunter, fold everything. Including AA. I expect to get flamed for this, but it's the correct play.

There are, say, 300 players each with a 3K starting stack. If you win and there are 299 players but you have 6k, are you any more likely to win the tournament? The answer is no. If you have zero chips, are you less likely to win the tournament? Obviously yes.

The chips you have are worth a lot more than the chips you can get. Chips change value in tournaments.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

Unless it's a bounty hunter, fold everything. Including AA. I expect to get flamed for this, but it's the correct play. There are, say, 300 players each with a 3K starting stack. If you win and there are 299 players but you have 6k, are you any more likely to win the tournament? The answer is no. If you have zero chips, are you less likely to win the tournament? Obviously yes. The chips you have are worth a lot more than the chips you can get. Chips change value in tournaments.
Posted by BigBluster

folding AA is correct, sorry nitty nora but you shouldnt be flamed for this at all, you should be banned for 4 week from playing and made to go and stand in the corner for the rest of the day!!!  

you are surely joking here???

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

Unless it's a bounty hunter, fold everything. Including AA. I expect to get flamed for this, but it's the correct play. There are, say, 300 players each with a 3K starting stack. If you win and there are 299 players but you have 6k, are you any more likely to win the tournament? The answer is no. If you have zero chips, are you less likely to win the tournament? Obviously yes. The chips you have are worth a lot more than the chips you can get. Chips change value in tournaments.
Posted by BigBluster

Others will disagree with you, but I have to agree, folding AA is the correct play here but only if you've been sniffing dust!

Reminds me of the time I folded a flopped nut flush on Kh3h6h in the first hand of a comp and folded as I knew the guy had a set and was going to hit.

BigBluster

I remember on 861 when Carlo Citrone said he'd fold AA first hand in the WSOP and got burnt at the stake for it!

Plus ca change.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

I remember on 861 when Carlo Citrone said he'd fold AA first hand in the WSOP and got burnt at the stake for it! Plus ca change.
Posted by BigBluster

He said he'd pass AA but the scenario was that there were 3 or 4 all ins before the action got to us with aces. This is understandable for a first hand of a $10k MTT with numerous people already all in, our AA shrinks going 4 ways. 

You have to be off your rocker to say you'd pass AA to a single all in on a Sky MTT. 

BigBluster

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT : He said he'd pass AA but the scenario was that there were 3 or 4 all ins before the action got to us with aces. This is understandable for a first hand of a $10k MTT with numerous people already all in, our AA shrinks going 4 ways.  You have to be off your rocker to say you'd pass AA to a single all in on a Sky MTT. 
Posted by hhyftrftdr

The buy-in is irrelevant. You should only play games you are bankrolled for.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT : The buy-in is irrelevant. You should only play games you are bankrolled for.
Posted by BigBluster

not necessarily, you could satalite into a tourney you arnt rolled for, dosnet change the fact that folding AA to one all in is just laughable and downright stupid, there isnt even a case here to justify folding.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT : not necessarily, you could satalite into a tourney you arnt rolled for, dosnet change the fact that folding AA to one all in is just laughable and downright stupid, there isnt even a case here to justify folding.
Posted by THEROCK573

Someone posted this thread because they wanted opinions, on both sides of the equation. I have given mine. You are free to disagree with me, but I should'nt be called stupid for expressing my opinion.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT : Someone posted this thread because they wanted opinions, on both sides of the equation. I have given mine. You are free to disagree with me, but I should'nt be called stupid for expressing my opinion.
Posted by BigBluster

but how can there be an opinion on folding AA pre first hand in a tournament  to one all in??? sometimes theres only one answer and its a call 100% of the time. anyone folding needs there head looked at.

Lambert180

NEVER folding AA to 1 all in on the first hand of ANY tournament. Even if I satellited into the WSOP ME, let's assume someone ships and we're BB so are last to act, I still would never fold AA even in that.

We are gonna be 80%+ favourite, if you genuinely think your edge is SO big that you can turn down them kinda races then gl to you, you must be an absolute sicko.

FWIW, assuming we're a good player getting an early double makes a pretty big impact on our ability to bully people, continue to chip up and make a run at winning. Are we guaranteed to win cos of our early double, no, but it'll help alot. In which case, that negates my 2nd paragraph cos if you were a sicko, then your edge would increase even more with your early double.

In terms of OP, if I was completely readless, it would depend on the tourney just cos you can make some general assumptions about the standard for different tournies. Small stakes BH I'd call with TT+ and AK deffo. Tighter in bigger BIs and freezeouts. First hand of Primo for instance, AA is obv a snap, KK is a bit puke but I'd call, QQ I prob fold.

Batkin88

I would only call with AA on the basis everytime I get dealt AA 1st hand in a tourney I shove all in to get a call from KK QQ JJ AK AQ from those wit the exact mind set as most of the above.

1267

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

Unless it's a bounty hunter, fold everything. Including AA. I expect to get flamed for this, but it's the correct play. There are, say, 300 players each with a 3K starting stack. If you win and there are 299 players but you have 6k, are you any more likely to win the tournament? The answer is no. If you have zero chips, are you less likely to win the tournament? Obviously yes. The chips you have are worth a lot more than the chips you can get. Chips change value in tournaments.
Posted by BigBluster

lol, your thought process is completely wrong.   If this is the case then when are you ever getting all your money in ??? 
50 hands later theres only 279 people left, youve got AA, someone shoves, do you call now ?     By your thought process you'd never call ever, because you could go out. but you think the extra chips wont help your chances of winning.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

Unless it's a bounty hunter, fold everything. Including AA. I expect to get flamed for this, but it's the correct play. There are, say, 300 players each with a 3K starting stack. If you win and there are 299 players but you have 6k, are you any more likely to win the tournament? The answer is no. If you have zero chips, are you less likely to win the tournament? Obviously yes. The chips you have are worth a lot more than the chips you can get. Chips change value in tournaments.
Posted by BigBluster

Speak for yourself mate... I'm certainly more likely to win If I have more chips and am playing vs less players

I think what you are trying to get at is that doubling up doesn't double your chances of winning, but busting does decrease your chances of winning to 0...The effects of ICM.

I'm pretty sure when considering ICM it is still almost always a mistake to turn down anything over a 60/40 in your favour. If you have a big edge on your table you can probably agrgue for a bit more in some cases. AA is a minimum of 80/20 vs any 1 hand, so it should always be a call.

cowhead

In Response to Re: First hand of an MTT:

Unless it's a bounty hunter, fold everything. Including AA. I expect to get flamed for this, but it's the correct play. There are, say, 300 players each with a 3K starting stack. If you win and there are 299 players but you have 6k, are you any more likely to win the tournament? The answer is no. If you have zero chips, are you less likely to win the tournament? Obviously yes. The chips you have are worth a lot more than the chips you can get. Chips change value in tournaments.
Posted by BigBluster

I'm not sure if you're being serious here.