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Nit is best at NL10 or lower?

edited March 2014 in Cash Strategy
I've never seen this player on my tables before, so it is probably a relevant query to tweak my game against any random.

He'd been there for maybe one orbit and the only hand I'd played with him was SB v BB where he bluffed the river (after I had opted to check call) and I took about 30bb.

Should I always be leaning towards folding KK to a 5 bet at these levels?  And not consider anything other than set-mining when the 3b and 5b are so small?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
harveySmall blind  £0.05 £0.05 £10.19
mikeBig blind  £0.10 £0.15 £9.90
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
louisFold     
shakinaces Raise  £0.30 £0.45 £13.35
danielRaise  £0.50 £0.95 £7.69
harveyFold     
mikeFold     
shakinaces Raise  £1.00 £1.95 £12.35
danielRaise  £1.60 £3.55 £6.09

Comments

  • edited March 2014
    Well I'm never folding for this price, as if I'm honest the betting here is ... not great. Quite often you'd be looking at 4bet up around £2.70 if a 3bet was up where it should be of around 90p to £1.

    As to your question. It is an interesting one, as low levels a lot of players are massively nitty with their 3bet range, and hence even tighter with 4bet or shove ranges. I don't like folding kings though unless we have real belief his only hand can be AA, and at this price I'm not convinced yet.

    To serious raising preflop I will consider folding QQ to 4bet or higher at low limits, as sooo often their range is so tight it will only be JJ+ and AK. I actually found while grinding low limits QQ was a leak of mine being prepared to ship it preflop without evidence they were a little more loose. I can't see me doing it will KK though even if they are tight. Only one hand ahead of us and I can't fold thinking every time I'm 4bet or more they always have AA.

    Some will say folding a 4bet is bad, but I dunno I agree with that. I'd rather lose £2.50-£3.00 than stack off when I'm fairly sure they aren't doing this often lighter than I am.
  • edited March 2014
    As a rule 4bet/folding isn't necessarily bad, but 4bet/folding KK would be imo

    If you weren't prepared to get it in then I think you shuold just flat the 3bet. I'm not folding KK pre against a random unknown player 80xBB deep ever though. I deffo get it in, if he's got AA so be it. If he has, make a note of that joke small 3bet sizing and keep an eye on what size he uses in future with what hands. If he makes 3bets this small all the time, it's bad but you can't take much from it but if he makes this size 3b with monsters but a normal size 3bet with hands like TT, that's a massive piece of info.
  • edited March 2014
    4-Bet folding is definitely not bad in general.

    4-Bet folding KK is definitely awful.

    This is a 100% ship. If he has AA this time it's just variance.

  • edited March 2014
    I'm slowly improving on note-taking, this one was definitely added!

    What am I expecting to see though if I GII pre with Kings for full stack?  I keep reviewing my hands and every single time (at NL10 cash or lower) that I'm donating stacks with KK, where I've been 4b or 5b the villain has Aces... I mean, I'm not finding even JJ/QQ/AK (not even KK for a rake donation / flush bad beat).

    I struggle to see how it can solely be put down to variance when oppo holdings are so weighted towards KK/AA (in the same way as variance when I GII on flop with set vs flush draw etc).

    Is it really not a leak to be losing stacks here every time?
  • edited March 2014
    'I've never seen this player on my tables before'

    'Oppo holdings are so weighted towards KK/AA'

    You just can't narrow a completely random player's range down to AA here.

    If you keep getting in KK v AA is generally gonna be variance. If you genuinely think a villain's Gii range pre-flop is AA/KK only then just adjust and exploit them.

    This is not a situation where you can assign the villain such a tight range. 
  • edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Nit is best at NL10 or lower?:
    I'm slowly improving on note-taking, this one was definitely added! What am I expecting to see though if I GII pre with Kings for full stack?  I keep reviewing my hands and every single time (at NL10 cash or lower) that I'm donating stacks with KK, where I've been 4b or 5b the villain has Aces... I mean, I'm not finding even JJ/QQ/AK (not even KK for a rake donation / flush bad beat). I struggle to see how it can solely be put down to variance when oppo holdings are so weighted towards KK/AA (in the same way as variance when I GII on flop with set vs flush draw etc). Is it really not a leak to be losing stacks here every time?
    Posted by shakinaces
    Not sure what comparison you are drawing here? Are you suggesting you think it's bad getting it all in on flop with a set vs flush draw? Always good, even though they will hit one out of three runs.

    And use notes for players ranges. It's the only way to know what their 3bet, 4bet etc ranges are. But folding KK to one better hand won't be a good long-term plan at all. Yes, pro's fold KK, and there are some occasions you can, but with no information I'd not fold KK in cash game.

    So take notes, mark the uber n its at your table while playing. If they tight on open raising period, you can be sure their 3bet+ ranges are nitty as heck.
  • edited March 2014
    I agree you cant just narrow down to KK/AA but for me your mistake is your raise size. Your getting no information and very little money into the pot pre like you would want with such a premium hand. He could just as easily have AK and QQ.

    Make your 3 bet a LOT bigger, especially as you will be OOP for the rest of the hand. For every time they have AA, they also have AK(s and o) and QQ.
  • edited March 2014
    Someone who is capable of bluffing the river is definitely capable of having more than just AA in his hand here. Against a range of QQ+ we have 50%. The more combos of AK we include the more our equity increases. 
  • edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Nit is best at NL10 or lower?:
    I'm slowly improving on note-taking, this one was definitely added! What am I expecting to see though if I GII pre with Kings for full stack?  I keep reviewing my hands and every single time (at NL10 cash or lower) that I'm donating stacks with KK, where I've been 4b or 5b the villain has Aces... I mean, I'm not finding even JJ/QQ/AK (not even KK for a rake donation / flush bad beat). I struggle to see how it can solely be put down to variance when oppo holdings are so weighted towards KK/AA (in the same way as variance when I GII on flop with set vs flush draw etc). Is it really not a leak to be losing stacks here every time?
    Posted by shakinaces
    Don't make assumptions like this. Learn to play the individual. The dynamic you set up for yourself will influence what you can be 3-bet, 4-bet or 5-bet by. Some players adapt to you. Others don't:
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
     Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £12.19
    MadSkillz Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £19.33
      Your hole cards
    • 5
    • A
         
    BorinLoner Raise  £0.24 £0.36 £20.83
     Fold     
     Fold     
    MadSkillz Raise  £0.56 £0.92 £18.77
    BorinLoner Raise  £1.12 £2.04 £19.71
    MadSkillz Raise  £2.88 £4.92 £15.89
    BorinLoner Raise  £4.32 £9.24 £15.39
    MadSkillz Fold     
    BorinLoner Muck     
    BorinLoner Win  £7.08  £22.47
    BorinLoner Return  £2.16 £0.00 £24.63
    MadSkillz is a pseudonym.
  • edited March 2014

    I don't like having a general rule to make a 4-bet three times the 3-bet, as has been suggested. It can make 4-bet bluffing way too expensive 100BBeff. We can leverage our stack while 4-betting considerably less:

    Instead of 3-- />9-->27 we can make it 3-->9-->20/21.

  • edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Nit is best at NL10 or lower?:
    Someone who is capable of bluffing the river is definitely capable of having more than just AA in his hand here. Against a range of QQ+ we have 50%. The more combos of AK we include the more our equity increases. 
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    Not sure we can equate a player bluffing the river with someone 5-betting light pre-flop. It doesn't tell us anything about them overvaluing JJ or whether they consider our 4-bet-GII range to include AK, QQ, JJ, TT... or if they think about those things.



    Just to reiterate, we need to know what we want the villain to do when we make the 4-bet. The dynamic between us should tell us whether they consider our range or just play their own hand. If they do think about our range, then what do they think we can be 4-betting with?

    We can't just say "4-bet-folding KK is bad, 80BBeff" if we know the villain thinks about our range and we are never expected to be lighter than KK. Why do we have that image, though? If we know we have that image, then why do we 4-bet against this villain at all?


    (Obviously I'm not folding KK pre-flop, before anyone thinks I'm suggesting that. We just need to be thinking about how our history affects our perceived range, villain's range, etc., etc...)
  • edited March 2014
    Cant even be bothered reading all this.

    KK pre... ship it.  You'l find yourself up against AK a whole lot, QQ a bit and against certain players AQ, JJ and 1010 or even worse.

    Yes occassionally they have AA, but bloody hell...

    How nitty do we have to be to fold KK pre?

    If I knew you were folding KK to a 4 or 5 bet at these levels,  well think of the fun I could have!

    So we are clear.


    KK is the second best starting hand in poker.  We have to KNOW he has AA well over half the time to fold pre.

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
  • edited March 2014
    Haha.

    You can always count on gazza to break it down for the lowest common denominator. But he's right. There are very few occasions where you should be folding kings pre, even when you 'kinda think' he may have aces, that's still not really a good enough thought process to lay down your hand.
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