exit hand from GaryLaud's first main event.

GaryLaud

Just finished my very first entry to a main competition. I ran really well and ended up 133rd from 640 runners. Didn't cash this time (72nd and upwards was paying)

Here is my exit hand. I didnt have many chips to start off with and the blinds 400/800 I felt pressured to play a hand as I felt I had to do something with this rather than wimping out of the tournament with a poor hand EG 7-2.

I had an open-ended str8 draw at one point which encouraged me to shove, but it didn't come-off.

Was I wrong to shove? Was I wrong to play this hand?

Name's changed to protect user's being revealed against their wishes.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
y***	Small blind		400.00	400.00	8255.00
OPPY	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	5750.00
	Your hole cards	9 8
GaryLaud	Call		800.00	2000.00	1462.50
****	Fold
****	Fold
**	Fold
****	Fold
OPPY	Check
Flop
		6 Q 7
OPPY	Bet		1500.00	3500.00	4250.00
GaryLaud	All-in		1462.50	4962.50	0.00
OPPY	Unmatched bet		37.50	4925.00	4287.50
OPPY	Show	A 3
GaryLaud	Show	9 8
Turn
		4
River
		2
OPPY	Win	Ace high	4925.00		9212.50

hhyftrftdr

Couple of things Gary....

1) Not sure how you got so short stacked (if you just lost a big pot then fair enough and discard the rest of this bit), but we really shouldn't be letting ourselves get so short of blinds. You have 3 big blinds here. You should be looking for good spots to get our chips in the middle when hovering around the 10-15bb mark. Be that open shoving or shoving over a raiser/limper. With this being a turbo, I'd be getting busy around the 15-20bb mark, simply because of the structure (or lack of it!). You don't need to wait for premium cards to get busy. If the button raises every orbit, and you're sat with J10s and 13bb, get them in, assuming you have fold equity. Retaining fold equity is one of the most important aspects of an MTT.

2) If you want to play the 98, then you really have to just shove. It probably isn't going to get through, but we cannot limp with it (or any hand for that matter). The hand will work out the same as Mr A3s in the BB will most likely call, and then at least we flop some good equity for a sweat. On another day, the BB wakes up with 73 and has to fold, and you pick up the very much needed blinds without contest.

3) You didn't actually shove the flop, you called all in. Might seem like the same thing but it isn't! He puts you in for your MTT life and you call with the open ender, fair enough. But where possible in tournaments, we want to be first to get our chips in the middle. In this hand, had he checked to you then you go all in, you now have 2 chances to win the pot; either he folds and we take it down or he calls and we try to hit our outs. Calling all in doesn't afford us this luxury.

I know very little about you/your game other than that you are quite new to poker I believe. Of the above, I'd argue the most important thing to pick up would be number 1. The thing that instantly struck me when looking at that HH was that you were down to just 3bb (like I said, apologies if you are this short due to losing a pot previously!).

Gl sir. Any questions fire away! I'm sure better, proper MTT grinders will be along soon and can offer more than me but hopefully ^ gives a little food for thought.

jimb0d1

Never limp Gary. If you are making the first action, then always raise or fold. hhyfttrdfsghdhd has covered everything else. 

Matt237

In Response to exit hand from GaryLaud's first main event.:

Just finished my very first entry to a main competition. I ran really well and ended up 133rd from 640 runners. Didn't cash this time (72nd and upwards was paying) Here is my exit hand. I didnt have many chips to start off with and the blinds 400/800 I felt pressured to play a hand as I felt I had to do something with this rather than wimping out of the tournament with a poor hand EG 7-2. I had an open-ended str8 draw at one point which encouraged me to shove, but it didn't come-off. Was I wrong to shove? Was I wrong to play this hand?
Posted by GaryLaud

Pretty much echo hhyftrftdr's post.

For a first big tournament on the site, to finish in the top 21% against a well established field is good start, well done.

Once you get to this stage in the tournament you have to pay attention to the blinds. Not sure whether you lost a big pot beforehand and someone doubled up or so, but never allow yourself to blind down to just under 3BB. Anything under 10bb is quite short, especially in a turbo, and is definitely in shove/fold territory pre flop.

We had just under 3 big blinds and 89. We are going to be called regardless, especially as we are first to act on a 6 player table. But as we are this low we have to shove before the flop, 89 is not the best and will never be the best hand 6 handed, but it connects and your cards are likely be live. I'm definitely not doing anything other than shoving - a raise commits us anyway, there is no point in folding and by far the worst play is a call. You were correct to play the hand but it should be opened with a shove - not a limp. On another day you would win this hand - it's flopped 50/50.

Try and eliminate open limping (calling the blinds) before the flop from your game. If you are going to do this, do it in the first level when the blinds are tiny compared to our stacks. It's bad play in general to limp pre flop. There are arguments to limp after say 2 players have opened with a limp and a call, if you have a hand that only really plays well in multi-way pots. Best thing you can do is ask for advice. You'll learn from the mistakes.

:-)

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: exit hand from GaryLaud's first main event.:

In Response to exit hand from GaryLaud's first main event. : Pretty much echo hhyftrftdr's post. For a first big tournament on the site, to finish in the top 21% against a well established field is good start, well done. Once you get to this stage in the tournament you have to pay attention to the blinds. Not sure whether you lost a big pot beforehand and someone doubled up or so, but never allow yourself to blind down to just under 3BB. Anything under 10bb is quite short, especially in a turbo, and is definitely in shove/fold territory pre flop. We had just under 3 big blinds and 89. We are going to be called regardless, especially as we are first to act on a 6 player table. But as we are this low we have to shove before the flop, 89 is not the best and will never be the best hand 6 handed, but it connects and your cards are likely be live. I'm definitely not doing anything other than shoving - a raise commits us anyway, there is no point in folding and by far the worst play is a call. You were correct to play the hand but it should be opened with a shove - not a limp. On another day you would win this hand - it's flopped 50/50. Try and eliminate open limping (calling the blinds) before the flop from your game. If you are going to do this, do it in the first level when the blinds are tiny compared to our stacks. It's bad play in general to limp pre flop. There are arguments to limp after say 2 players have opened with a limp and a call, if you have a hand that only really plays well in multi-way pots. Best thing you can do is ask for advice. You'll learn from the mistakes. :-)
Posted by Matt237

Thanks Matt.

I see you are echo-ing the thought's of the other contributor's but what I really appreciate is that you've explained it in a kinda coaching sence using language and phrase-ology which is easy for me, a relative learner, to understand (I applaud you on this)

I was relatively speaking about being a learner..I've played on & off for around five years, but mainly on gaming consoles and on the odd occasion for play money with other providers

I see my distinct errors I made in the competition and will try to begin shoving hands when I notice my balance becoming as low as TEN BIGS.  

What I am at odd's with in my mind is the type of hand I should go aggressive with when low-stacked/balance?? I feel I am running scared of bigger hands, (EG J/10 or K/Q) and I raise pre-flop only to find the flop itself is no help at all with completely "NON PLUS" cards (EG 2,8,A) With a flop like that I often end-up folding my hand when I see others opening the betting, especially if the bet is 3x Bigs or greater...what can I do to improve my perspective on this situation?

Also I would welcome any explanation on the importance of position and how a rookie can learn this particular skill.

Thanks to everyone for your correspondance thus far.

Matt237

: What I am at odd's with in my mind is the type of hand I should go aggressive with when low-stacked/balance?? I feel I am running scared of bigger hands, (EG J/10 or K/Q) and I raise pre-flop only to find the flop itself is no help at all with completely "NON PLUS" cards (EG 2,8,A) With a flop like that I often end-up folding my hand when I see others opening the betting, especially if the bet is 3x Bigs or greater...what can I do to improve my perspective on this situation? Also I would welcome any explanation on the importance of position and how a rookie can learn this particular skill. Thanks to everyone for your correspondance thus far.

Posted by GaryLaud

A lot will depend on the dynamic of the table - (position/stack sizes/playing styles of opposing players). For instance if you are UTG (first to act), you don't really want to be shoving into 5 players unless you have a premium hand. If you have 10 BBs and say JQ offsuit or KJ or A8 for instance, it's quite an easy fold if you think about it, Unless if you have good notes on opponent and think you'll take the blinds as they tighten up for some reason (on the bubble for the money/etc). Once you are on the button or in the blinds and it's folded round to you; it's easier to shove with these hands. Type of tournament plays aswell; some players in bounty hunters will call a shove quite light to chase for your head. Prime example: (Bounty hunter ; Friday's main event)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Small B	Small blind		75.00	75.00	115.00
Big B	Big blind		150.00	225.00	7149.87
	Your hole cards	J Q
UTG	Fold
Matt237	All-in		1361.25	1586.25	0.00
Cut off	Fold
Button	Fold
Small B	Fold
Big B	Call		1211.25	2797.50	5938.62
Big B	Show	5 J
Matt237	Show	J Q
Flop
		6 8 3
Turn
		Q
River
		2
Matt237	Win	Pair of Queens	2797.50		2797.50

When you raise pre flop and get called in 1 or 2 spots, you should be looking to put in a continuation bet. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to have any piece of the flop. Purpose of this is to see where you lie in the hand - If you have flopped a pair you have some showdown value, and you may not want to check behind the flop and face a turn bet not knowing where you are.  Quite often if they call the C-bet, they will check again to you, then you have the opportunity to check behind again and try to get to cheap showdown, or if you hit the turn have another stab at taking the hand down. If you have flopped nothing, you can put in a bet to fold out hands that miss the flop aswell, and take the pot down on the flop with air (High card/Backdoor draws etc). Another example:

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceSmall B Small blind  25.00 25.00 1980.00 Big B Big blind  50.00 75.00 5204.00   Your hole cards A 10       UTG Fold     UTG+1 Fold     Matt237 Raise  100.00 175.00 4062.00 Dealer Call  100.00 275.00 5185.00 Small B Fold     Big B Fold     Flop    3 6 K       Matt237 Bet  150.00 425.00 3912.00 Dealer Fold     Matt237 Muck     Matt237 Win  275.00  4187.00 Matt237 Return  150.00 0.00 4337.00
Position is really key in poker - as we have some control on the hand as the last player to act (sounds obvious but is very important). Pre flop it can allow us to play a wider range of hands on the button than we can when we are UTG or in the blinds. It's a lot more comfortable playing hands in the advantage of position, as if you lead pre flop, it's harder to continue/bluff out of position than it is when you are in position. We can definitely raise a wider range of hands in later positions, specifically on the button. Hands like the JT or suited connectors are easier to play/raise in later positions, as raising with these into 5 players can often get you into a lot of trouble if people 3bet (re-raise) in the later positions. They never have to have a hand to do this (could be a bluff re raise to isolate you) or if they have a premium hand (AA/KK/AK/QQ etc), You don't want to get into trouble playing against these hands, especially out of position. So it is adviseable to tighten up raising range in UTG/UTG+1 (First 2 positions to act) but then again we all have different approaches to things. Good example here:
 
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceSmall B Small blind  75.00 75.00 1940.00 Big BBig blind  150.00 225.00 6790.00   Your hole cards 2 J       UTGFold     UTG+1 Fold     Cut off Fold     Matt237 Raise  300.00 525.00 3825.00 Small B Fold     Big BRaise  600.00 1125.00 6190.00 Matt237 Raise  900.00 2025.00 2925.00 Big B Call  450.00 2475.00 5740.00 Flop    Q K 2       Big B Check     Matt237 Bet  750.00 3225.00 2175.00 Big B Fold     Matt237 Muck     Matt237 Win  2475.00  4650.00 Matt237 Return  750.00 0.00 5400.00
I made this play purely because i had position on this opponent. You may think J2 offsuit is awful and it's shocking play to do this. It isn't necessarily bad play as such because i took a specific line and stuck to it. There's a good argument for doing with any hand so long as you can follow up the pre flop raise with some aggression. If you decide to raise with nothing pre flop and you are called and don't bet once post flop, it seems pointless. Don't do this unless you are confident/comfortable with making this play.

Hope it clears the queries up. Happy to help with any more questions :-)

Matt237

Sorry it came out all weird - not sure what happened to quote function but hopefully it should still be easy to follow

hhyftrftdr

Good post Matt. Perhaps might be a bit too early for stuff like that last hand though

Matt237

In Response to Re: exit hand from GaryLaud's first main event.:

Good post Matt. Perhaps might be a bit too early for stuff like that last hand though
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Indeed, just tried to find a hand in my history which showed some decent action relating to position :-)