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Missed value vs Tournament life.

hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
edited April 2014 in Tournament Strategy
zammo19720 Small blind  300.00 300.00 53481.25
Pablo395 Big blind  600.00 900.00 20567.50
  Your hole cards
  • 10
  • 10
     
hhyftrftdr Raise  1200.00 2100.00 13100.00
DAIBOOT Fold     
Claytov Fold     
K8LOU Fold     
zammo19720 Fold     
Pablo395 Call  600.00 2700.00 19967.50
Flop
   
  • A
  • 2
  • 5
     
Pablo395 Check     
hhyftrftdr Check     
Turn
   
  • 9
     
Pablo395 Check     
hhyftrftdr Check     
River
   
  • 10
     
Pablo395 Bet  2700.00 5400.00 17267.50
hhyftrftdr All-in  13100.00 18500.00 0.00
Pablo395 Call  10400.00 28900.00 6867.50
Pablo395 Show
  • 4
  • 3
   
hhyftrftdr Show
  • 10
  • 10
   
Pablo395 Win Flush to the Ace 28900.00  35767.50
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was my ME exit last night, and it has been bothering me slightly!

I kinda realised immediately that when I shipped I was mostly only getting called by a flush (he'd even flopped the straight, greedy bugggggger!). I did consider just calling, and thought I'm gonna look silly if he rolls over Ax or a lower set etc. I felt there was value to be had from worse. Then I clicked all in, and before he called I knew I'd made a booboo.

I could've called, lost, and still had 17/18bb stack to splash about with. Instead I had a rush of blood, wanted the lot and left with egg on my face.

Now if this were cash, no bother. Load up another buy in and off we roll. But this was for my tournament life. Is there a strong argument for potentially missing out on a load of value in favour of preserving our tournament? I've had similar hands before (as I'm sure many of you have), like flush over flush when I could've called but went all in for max value, was beaten and out the MTT door. The one above is a bit more cut and dry (a mistake from me), but interested in other people's thoughts on the topic.

Don't be shy :)
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Comments

  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    zammo19720 Small blind   300.00 300.00 53481.25 Pablo395 Big blind   600.00 900.00 20567.50   Your hole cards 10 10       hhyftrftdr Raise   1200.00 2100.00 13100.00 DAIBOOT Fold         Claytov Fold         K8LOU Fold         zammo19720 Fold         Pablo395 Call   600.00 2700.00 19967.50 Flop     A 2 5       Pablo395 Check         hhyftrftdr Check         Turn     9       Pablo395 Check         hhyftrftdr Check         River     10       Pablo395 Bet   2700.00 5400.00 17267.50 hhyftrftdr All-in   13100.00 18500.00 0.00 Pablo395 Call   10400.00 28900.00 6867.50 Pablo395 Show 4 3       hhyftrftdr Show 10 10       Pablo395 Win Flush to the Ace 28900.00   35767.50 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was my ME exit last night, and it has been bothering me slightly! I kinda realised immediately that when I shipped I was mostly only getting called by a flush (he'd even flopped the straight, greedy bugggggger!). I did consider just calling, and thought I'm gonna look silly if he rolls over Ax or a lower set etc. I felt there was value to be had from worse. Then I clicked all in, and before he called I knew I'd made a booboo. I could've called, lost, and still had 17/18bb stack to splash about with. Instead I had a rush of blood, wanted the lot and left with egg on my face. Now if this were cash, no bother. Load up another buy in and off we roll. But this was for my tournament life. Is there a strong argument for potentially missing out on a load of value in favour of preserving our tournament? I've had similar hands before (as I'm sure many of you have), like flush over flush when I could've called but went all in for max value, was beaten and out the MTT door. The one above is a bit more cut and dry (a mistake from me), but interested in other people's thoughts on the topic. Don't be shy :)
    Posted by hhyftrftdr

    this kinda sums it up for me pal, im just flatting the river, dont think he can have any sets or AX when he checks flop and turn. think im probably c betting flop smallish 2.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited March 2014
    Why on earth are we checking back flop and turn? Can see an argument for checking either flop or turn, but deffo not both. Prob flat river when he pots it. 
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited March 2014
    Would generally cbet smallish as Rocky says, but this was pretty villain specific checking.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited March 2014
    Checking flop is fine but then we have to bet turn. We're just letting so many hands freeroll us... FDs, straight draws, Jx, Qx, Kx, and every PP that isn't a set
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  • Matt237Matt237
    edited March 2014
    We have to bet the turn. As played river is a call.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited March 2014
    Anyway, this HH has sidetracked from what I posted about! Do we sometimes sacrifice value in order to preserve tournament life?

    Ps, thanks for HH comments thus far ;)
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited March 2014
    In answer to the OP, yes definitely. If I think I have a decent edge at the table then I'll definitely avoid very marginal spots to avoid putting my life on the line. Obv I'm not gonna pass up really good spots, but I think we can pass up more marginal stuff if we think we can just minraise steal a load of blinds risk free and generally outplay people.
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater
    edited March 2014
    Yeah, I would almost always be sigh-calling this on the river, as played. For him to check the flop and turn and then pot the river, I'd bet my left nut he has the flush. But you gotta see.
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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    In answer to the OP, yes definitely. If I think I have a decent edge at the table then I'll definitely avoid very marginal spots to avoid putting my life on the line. Obv I'm not gonna pass up really good spots, but I think we can pass up more marginal stuff if we think we can just minraise steal a load of blinds risk free and generally outplay people.
    Posted by Lambert180
    For once...what lambo said! For eg, On some tables if we are winning loads of uncontested pots then we don't need to get in a flip situation and can just chip un uncontested. However, as a general point, I do find a lot of players overestimate their edge so factor that in as at times we do need to win our flips to win MTTs.

    OP, we don't have to win the absolute maximum in every pot and sometimes a small ball approach is best and of course we can sacrifice some potential value in pots where if we are wrong its gg.
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited March 2014
    I agree flop check is fine but we have to bet turn. Just calling river as pot bet looks like someone desperate to make up not getting extra chips so far. I think the villain played it worse as it's very lucky you hit such a strong card as your folding practically everything else to that bet and lucky your allin was with the very bottom of your range as he loses to every other flush. 

    On tournament life I really do think you have to consider possibly losing value over losing your life. Cash is about getting every chip possible from a hand where as tournaments are about getting all the available chips without going broke. 
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited March 2014
    Tourney life is a must. I am just calling the river because our hand has decent show down value, but is not strong enough for the reshove. By over shoving 22 bb into a pot of 9bb looks bluffy and I understand your train of thought trying to get called by Ax.

    But the lack of action on the flop and turn from both of you gave you no information and lots at the same time.

    Would he be checking Ace x? Is he checking to look for the flush?

    By the lack of C bet, we have no clue where we are in the hand.

    I have a question for you though. If the 10 of Clubs comes out on the river, not completing a flush. Do you still tank off shove or  just raise!?
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    Tourney life is a must. I am just calling the river because our hand has decent show down value, but is not strong enough for the reshove. By over shoving 22 bb into a pot of 9bb looks bluffy and I understand your train of thought trying to get called by Ax. But the lack of action on the flop and turn from both of you gave you no information and lots at the same time. Would he be checking Ace x? Is he checking to look for the flush? By the lack of C bet, we have no clue where we are in the hand. I have a question for you though. If the 10 of Clubs comes out on the river, not completing a flush. Do you still tank off shove or  just raise!?
    Posted by watto84
    Without wanting to give too much away ;) yes I'd probably shove that river if an offsuit 10 fell. In this instance I'd still be out, but I'd be looking for max value with the effective nuts, whilst also trying to give the impression I could be 'at it'. Any raise out of my stack on the river should be suspicious, but if they were gonna call a raise to 7k I might as well look to get the full DU.

    I do appreciate the comments guys, but I posted this regarding the concept of missed value vs MTT life (probs should have made that clearer in opening post). I used that hand as a poor example, as it was an acknowledged mistake on my part. I appreciate the advice but unfortunately I'm all too aware of what went wrong with the hand!

    Think Watto asks a good question, which in turn would be a better example.... do we go broke on an offsuit 10?
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life. : For once...what lambo said! For eg, On some tables if we are winning loads of uncontested pots then we don't need to get in a flip situation and can just chip un uncontested. However, as a general point, I do find a lot of players overestimate their edge so factor that in as at times we do need to win our flips to win MTTs. OP, we don't have to win the absolute maximum in every pot and sometimes a small ball approach is best and of course we can sacrifice some potential value in pots where if we are wrong its gg.
    Posted by MattBates
    Simple but succinctly pot, thanks Matt.
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life. : Without wanting to give too much away ;) yes I'd probably shove that river if an offsuit 10 fell. In this instance I'd still be out, but I'd be looking for max value with the effective nuts, whilst also trying to give the impression I could be 'at it'. Any raise out of my stack on the river should be suspicious, but if they were gonna call a raise to 7k I might as well look to get the full DU. I do appreciate the comments guys, but I posted this regarding the concept of missed value vs MTT life (probs should have made that clearer in opening post). I used that hand as a poor example, as it was an acknowledged mistake on my part. I appreciate the advice but unfortunately I'm all too aware of what went wrong with the hand! Think Watto asks a good question, which in turn would be a better example.... do we go broke on an offsuit 10?
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    I would say yes.  There are only 16 combinations of the 34 straight and our jam may look somewhat spewy.  Don't think we can ever put villain on Ax but he can show up with 9T or call us off with a mid pair or Tx
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  • ZIPPY146ZIPPY146
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    zammo19720 Small blind   300.00 300.00 53481.25 Pablo395 Big blind   600.00 900.00 20567.50   Your hole cards 10 10       hhyftrftdr Raise   1200.00 2100.00 13100.00 DAIBOOT Fold         Claytov Fold         K8LOU Fold         zammo19720 Fold         Pablo395 Call   600.00 2700.00 19967.50 Flop     A 2 5       Pablo395 Check         hhyftrftdr Check         Turn     9       Pablo395 Check         hhyftrftdr Check         River     10       Pablo395 Bet   2700.00 5400.00 17267.50 hhyftrftdr All-in   13100.00 18500.00 0.00 Pablo395 Call   10400.00 28900.00 6867.50 Pablo395 Show 4 3       hhyftrftdr Show 10 10       Pablo395 Win Flush to the Ace 28900.00   35767.50 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was my ME exit last night, and it has been bothering me slightly! I kinda realised immediately that when I shipped I was mostly only getting called by a flush (he'd even flopped the straight, greedy bugggggger!). I did consider just calling, and thought I'm gonna look silly if he rolls over Ax or a lower set etc. I felt there was value to be had from worse. Then I clicked all in, and before he called I knew I'd made a booboo. I could've called, lost, and still had 17/18bb stack to splash about with. Instead I had a rush of blood, wanted the lot and left with egg on my face. Now if this were cash, no bother. Load up another buy in and off we roll. But this was for my tournament life. Is there a strong argument for potentially missing out on a load of value in favour of preserving our tournament? I've had similar hands before (as I'm sure many of you have), like flush over flush when I could've called but went all in for max value, was beaten and out the MTT door. The one above is a bit more cut and dry (a mistake from me), but interested in other people's thoughts on the topic. Don't be shy :)
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    hi hhy,
    value  bets are a big part of tournament play,they are the bread and butter bets,they buy you another orbit,show a few cards gain respect for future bets.timing is important and value bets can not be made to sacrifice your tourney,even if it is against an aggro player.
    THank you,and here endith the lecture...
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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    In Response to Missed value vs Tournament life. : hi hhy, value  bets are a big part of tournament play,they are the bread and butter bets,they buy you another orbit,show a few cards gain respect for future bets.timing is important and value bets can not be made to sacrifice your tourney,even if it is against an aggro player. THank you,and here endith the lecture...
    Posted by ZIPPY146
    Don't know if I am the only one but don't understand what you mean by this comment.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life. : Don't know if I am the only one but don't understand what you mean by this comment.
    Posted by MattBates
    +1
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  • chicknMeltchicknMelt
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life.:
    In Response to Re: Missed value vs Tournament life. : Don't know if I am the only one but don't understand what you mean by this comment.
    Posted by MattBates
    thats cos your not at his level of poker understanding yet. clearly.

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