Two ways to win, or one? Nah, one is fina, ta.

Tikay10

I like to understand things. Why they happen, why people do things. I'm just curious really. (Read that either way you want). 

I play, on average, 35 DYM's most nights. Say, 200 per week, I suppose. I play PLO8, but the logic - or lack of it - works identically in all formats, including NLHE.

We don't need specific hand details, the scenario is more general, so the details are just "typical".

We are, let us say, 4 handed, with 3 paid. DYM Bubble Time, the best bit of a DYM, & the only bit that really matters. Play correctly here, & you are halfway home.
 
There are 12,000 chips in play, blinds are 300-600. So, an average stack is FIVE big Blinds. Five Bigs! Amazing really, but that's how these things play. And 5 Bigs is perfectly OK in a PLO8 DYM. Not so much, I'm guessing, in NLHE?

Anyway, what happens next is the thing. 

A chap  - lets call him Mr Limp, LIMPS in, from his (say) 5 BB "stack".

Next to act  - he can be Mr Pot - now POTS it. He's committed now, he has a bowl behind. Now Mr Limp CALLS.

Why would we play that way?

We now HAVE to win at Showdown. No other choice. We are ahead at showdown, or we are bust. 

This puzzles me so much that last night, I counted how many times I witnessed it. In 42 DYM's, I saw it happen 67 times.
 
So, a lot of players seem to like the play.
 
Me? I just don't get it. 

If Mr Limp pots it, Mr Pot most likely folds. He does. I have meaured that, too. 80% of "pot" bets (shoves effectively) at this stage of a DYM don't get called. 

So why does Mr Limp not pot it in the first place? And if  gets called, fine, now he has to be ahead at Showdown if he wants to survive.
 
We can POT with a very wide range. We need a MUCH better range to call though. That used to be called the "gap concept". Lord knows what it is called these days. Triple range merging or somesuch I suppose.
 
In short, by potting it, Mr Limp gets TWO ways to win the hand. 80% of the time he does not get called. That's an 80% Freeroll. Pretty good, huh?

Instead, he limp calls, & now only has one way to win the hand. He has to be ahead at showdown.

He prefers one way to win. Me? Give me two ways, every time.
 
Am I wrong?

If not, why would we do that limp/call thing?

I'm genuinely interested in this, so all feedback wlcome.

 
     

       

Tikay10

I wrote.....

"....I play PLO8, but the logic - or lack of it - works identically in all formats, including NLHE....."
 
I suppose I should add, for the pedants, that of course, in NLHE, we CAN do the limp-call thing with monstas. The pre-flop odds of a big pair v two random cards can be pretty compelling, even more so versus a smaller pair, 80% or so. So trapping is a valid concept in NLHE, in the right spots.
 
This does not apply though in PLO8. We are very rarely better than 60-40 even with good aces, & I don't think pre-flop trapping works in PLO8. And you don't 'arf feel daft when it goes belly up. Trust me, I know.    

VespaPX

Been puzzling me for a while now and i still haven't worked it out.
Perhaps its an ego thing that once they've put chips in the pot they can't find the fold button?
Different strokes for different folks i guess.

Isn't it amazing how many times the "limpers" get there too!

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Two ways to win, or one? Nah, one is fina, ta.:

Been puzzling me for a while now and i still haven't worked it out. Perhaps its an ego thing that once they've put chips in the pot they can't find the fold button? Different strokes for different folks i guess. Isn't it amazing how many times the "limpers" get there too!
Posted by VespaPX

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed it.

If they raised pre, instead of limp/calling, they'd "get there" 80% of the time. A virtual freeroll to add 30% to our stack.  

They DO win a fair amount of times, too. Which proves why they SHOULD raise pre - their hand is good enough.

OK, we only nick the Blinds, but with a (typically) 5BB stack, that has paid the rent for another orbit. During which there is every chance someone else will go busto, & we win the DYM by default. This is not a deep stacked cash game, it's a DYM, & these play very very shallow. Almost as shallow as Orford, one might say.    

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Two ways to win, or one? Nah, one is fina, ta.:

Been puzzling me for a while now and i still haven't worked it out. Perhaps its an ego thing that once they've put chips in the pot they can't find the fold button? Different strokes for different folks i guess. Isn't it amazing how many times the "limpers" get there too!
Posted by VespaPX

That's actually a very interesting point, which applies to ALL forms of poker, & here we are talking about the psychological side of the game, & the players.
 
Watch any MTT, or cash-game, at the lower buy-in levels, & you'll see someone limp, then it gets potted, & you KNOW, 90% of the time, the limper will now call. I genuinely think this is a psychological thing.

"I won't be pushed around"

"But you just were, mate. You danced to his tune".


People don't like being pushed around, so they call out of defiance, stubbornness, spite, whatever.

How often do we see a winning player do the limp/call thing, except in very specific circumstances?

VespaPX

I take notes on certain players such as:

Will limp / fold

Will limp / call

Its helped making decisions in the past.

Talon

  I have noticed a similar mentality of play in PLO8 and that is about the calling range.

 A player not in the blinds will call big pot committing bets with A2xx. The mentality presumably is i might get lucky and thereby get my chips back. 

 In the blinds it is a bit different but from say the button it makes very little sense. But lost track of the times that people will go to war with a Lo only hand. 

 Simple maths says that these only play well multiway and very badly HU. Again though people only giving themselves 1 chance to win not 2.

F_Ivanovic

Pretty sure the logic goes something like this:

"I want to play this hand, but I want to see a flop that I like first before putting my stack at risk, so I'll limp in"

"Oh shucks, someone has raised. I see them do this a lot. I guess I have to call now otherwise the chips I invested will be a waste. Getting good odds as well.*" * may not factor in their thinking process.

I have another interesting thing to pick up. Say we are up against a limp/caller. They limp in the CO and we're on the BTN with 5 bigs, they have 5 bigs too. (as does the rest of the table)

What hands are we shoving with here? Bear in mind we don't have 2 ways of winning the pot anymore - we just have the one, because we know our opponent will call. It can get somewhat tricky because like you said in PLO8 we are almost never more than a 60% fave and often the percentages are very similar. Obviously a hand like AA23ds or AA2ss and we are happy to GII. AA23 we have 71% equity on average. But what about hands like AK25ds. We have 58% vs a 40% range... is that high enough to be happy to GII? 24% of the time we will GII and go out. (when we're scooped) - and how often do we get a hand where we are happy enough to GII? AA23 and AA2 don't come around too often. So the limper basically forces us to fold a huge part of our range.

alex1229

Some people just dont know where the fold button is

I always see it in DYM's 4 people left, blinds 300/600 and someone with 2,2k chips flat calls utg for 600 and they fold to someones all in. I dont understand it, but i do like it, these players are good

Enut

In Response to Re: Two ways to win, or one? Nah, one is fina, ta.:

Pretty sure the logic goes something like this: "I want to play this hand, but I want to see a flop that I like first before putting my stack at risk, so I'll limp in" "Oh shucks, someone has raised. I see them do this a lot. I guess I have to call now otherwise the chips I invested will be a waste. Getting good odds as well.*" * may not factor in their thinking process. I have another interesting thing to pick up. Say we are up against a limp/caller. They limp in the CO and we're on the BTN with 5 bigs, they have 5 bigs too. (as does the rest of the table) What hands are we shoving with here? Bear in mind we don't have 2 ways of winning the pot anymore - we just have the one, because we know our opponent will call. It can get somewhat tricky because like you said in PLO8 we are almost never more than a 60% fave and often the percentages are very similar. Obviously a hand like AA23ds or AA2ss and we are happy to GII. AA23 we have 71% equity on average. But what about hands like AK25ds. We have 58% vs a 40% range... is that high enough to be happy to GII? 24% of the time we will GII and go out. (when we're scooped) - and how often do we get a hand where we are happy enough to GII? AA23 and AA2 don't come around too often. So the limper basically forces us to fold a huge part of our range.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Ah, if only they knew they were doing this!

Macacgirl1

To state the obvious, I honestly believe many people who do the limp - call an all-in pot raise thing, do so as they think they are trapping.
Also, many will limp with a reasonable hand and hope to see the flop cheaply. If they do get raised, they don't see it as something to respect, but because they have a reasonable hand, they see it as an opportunity to shove, to gamble.

Yes, it's daft, but that's how I see it.

MrCoxy

I see very un optimal play in dym's every single day, if i had a pound for every time i saw sumone limp out of a 10bb stack or less id be a very rich man.

During one dym a player was limping in nearly every hand from the start, it got down to the business end of the dym and he was still doing it, other players with now shove or fold stacks took advantage of this and shoved on him pretty much every time he done it. He then typed in the chat box 'why is everybody going all in'. i politely said 'you now have 5 big blinds which means you have two options, you either fold or you shove the lot in'. 

He did not reply and the very next hand he did exactly the same and limped in!!

Dont get me wrong we obviosly want people like this so we can make money out of them but i was honestly trying to help him as he was evidently new to the game or just a poor player, but if they dont want to listen what can you do???