"Unethical" or just plain cheating?

Asmodeus

Hi.

Scenario:

Four players are on the bubble in a Sit N go. Chip leader goes all in every hand. Fair enough so far.
One of the players goes away. He is very much the smallest stack at the table - the chips are something like 7k,2k,2k, 800, blinds 150/300 or so. So then the chip leader continues to go all in almost every hand against the two remaining players, but just calls the "away" player when he's in the big blind. If the two live players fold, then he plays the flop and folds either on the turn or the river, thus giving the away players the chips.
He did this on several occasions to keep the away player in the game while continuing to go all in against the live players.

This, to me, is a clear case of chip dumping.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

DOHHHHHHH

It's very good play, imo.

Edit, it would be if it was the bubble of a normal sng, but with 4 players left that'd have to be a 9 handed standard sng game?

If he's doing it on the bubble of a 6 handed game or a 6 handed dym, it's just weird!

GaryQQQ

No, not cheating at all. Not even unethical in my opinion. The chip leader is playing the situation perfectly.

Lambert180

Yup he's playing very well. As it is, neither of you want to bubble before the away player so he's taking all of your chips before the bubble bursts, then when eventually he bubbles the away player, both live players have micro stacks left and he locks up 1st place.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

Yup he's playing very well. As it is, neither of you want to bubble before the away player so he's taking all of your chips before the bubble bursts, then when eventually he bubbles the away player, both live players have micro stacks left and he locks up 1st place.
Posted by Lambert180

^^^^^ +1   

Why would he want to give up his advantage?

Tikay10

In Response to "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

Hi. Scenario: Four players are on the bubble in a Sit N go. Chip leader goes all in every hand. Fair enough so far. One of the players goes away. He is very much the smallest stack at the table - the chips are something like 7k,2k,2k, 800, blinds 150/300 or so. So then the chip leader continues to go all in almost every hand against the two remaining players, but just calls the "away" player when he's in the big blind. If the two live players fold, then he plays the flop and folds either on the turn or the river, thus giving the away players the chips. He did this on several occasions to keep the away player in the game while continuing to go all in against the live players. This, to me, is a clear case of chip dumping. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Posted by Asmodeus

Absolutely not - it is excellent play, for the reasons others have explained. Purely tactical, certainly not unethical. One can understand why the two medium stacks were a bit chuntery, but the guy was playing his Big Stack perfectly. Not unethical, not against any rules.    

Level 3 stuff.

 

jdsallstar

Ok I get putting pressure on the two medium stacks is good play but, am I missing something, how is limping and then folding voluntarily on the turn or river to an away player good play??

It's not cheating, just sounds like someone trying to be a smart arsenal to me!!

BOOBOO81

Because he his keeping the away player in the game, and the other 2 live players have almost conceded playing for 2nd.

By keeping the away player in he can steal their blinds and when  the ame eventually goes hu the other live player will ultimately be shortstacked! Giving the chipleader a real edge hu?

Jac35

It's certainly not against any rules but I would dispute a little that it's not unethical.
If I'm reading it right then he is limping into 'away' players blind and then open folding? Doesn't really sit too well with me to be honest.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

It's certainly not against any rules but I would dispute a little that it's not unethical. If I'm reading it right then he is limping into 'away' players blind and then open folding? Doesn't really sit too well with me to be honest.
Posted by Jac35

Well yes, I suppose that is a little bit "angley".

Not an easy one in truth. Don't think I could do that, but whether it is unethical is a bit moot.

Sir-Gary

Can we get some very important detail cleared up, please tell me this is not a 6 player DYM. This is important.

If it is then this is very naughty, as clearly he is taking a risk of walking into big hands to engineer the person who is sat out (they may come back), into a paypout place, with no advantage to themselves, as all 3 places pay the same. If it is not a 6player DYM but a normal S&G structure then the play though annoying to you is actually good, as they are playing for the 1'st place money by using the bubble against you.

DESERTTURK

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

It's certainly not against any rules but I would dispute a little that it's not unethical. If I'm reading it right then he is limping into 'away' players blind and then open folding? Doesn't really sit too well with me to be honest.
Posted by Jac35

i agree with jac and how does chipleader know that player sitting out will not suddenely appear and by luck turn tables on him,It would be good if we could see the hands he was folding to him as folding or checking the nuts is fraud in my eyes he must of known the other player and was helping him out (could happen) its tactical in a way but more DODGY lol, Can u tell me did the player sitting out cash?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

Can we get some very important detail cleared up, please tell me this is not a 6 player DYM. This is important. If it is then this is very naughty, as clearly he is taking a risk of walking into big hands to engineer the person who is sat out (they may come back), into a paypout place, with no advantage to themselves, as all 3 places pay the same. If it is not a 6player DYM but a normal S&G structure then the play though annoying to you is actually good, as they are playing for the 1'st place money by using the bubble against you.
Posted by Sir-Gary

The replies assume it is a regular SNG, not a DYM.

jdsallstar

Does it really matter what form of the sng it is?! Surely just limping and then giving the chips away by open folding to an away player is just completely pointless! 

Put pressure on the medium stacks AND steal the away blind has to be the optimal play for regular sng!

If it's a dym shut up shop, you're guaranteed to make the money. Dumping chips to away player and shoving continuously on mediums could lead to one of the mediums doubling (thus virtually matching your stack) and then the away player suddenly comes back with more chips than what he should have had. This play only makes sense if a) the guy wants to abuse his strong position and just thinks it's funny to let the away player get in the money at the expense of the other two or b) he knows the away player and wants him to make the money (makes cheating a much more reasonable accusation).

bludreid11

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

Yup he's playing very well. As it is, neither of you want to bubble before the away player so he's taking all of your chips before the bubble bursts, then when eventually he bubbles the away player, both live players have micro stacks left and he locks up 1st place.
Posted by Lambert180

What is the point ? 123 all get the same prize, however if the villan knows the player sat out THIS IS CHEATING
NO IFS OR BUTS

bludreid11

In Response to "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

Hi. Scenario: Four players are on the bubble in a Sit N go. Chip leader goes all in every hand. Fair enough so far. One of the players goes away. He is very much the smallest stack at the table - the chips are something like 7k,2k,2k, 800, blinds 150/300 or so. So then the chip leader continues to go all in almost every hand against the two remaining players, but just calls the "away" player when he's in the big blind. If the two live players fold, then he plays the flop and folds either on the turn or the river, thus giving the away players the chips. He did this on several occasions to keep the away player in the game while continuing to go all in against the live players. This, to me, is a clear case of chip dumping. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Posted by Asmodeus

ITS CHEATING, HE MAY WELL BE FRIENDS WITH THE PLAYER SAT OUT

unknown_username

In Response to "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

Hi. Scenario: Four players are on the bubble in a Sit N go. Chip leader goes all in every hand. Fair enough so far. One of the players goes away. He is very much the smallest stack at the table - the chips are something like 7k,2k,2k, 800, blinds 150/300 or so. So then the chip leader continues to go all in almost every hand against the two remaining players, but just calls the "away" player when he's in the big blind. If the two live players fold, then he plays the flop and folds either on the turn or the river, thus giving the away players the chips. He did this on several occasions to keep the away player in the game while continuing to go all in against the live players. This, to me, is a clear case of chip dumping. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Posted by Asmodeus

Can I just clarify something?

Are you suggesting that the three remaining players at the table steal the away players blinds?

If the absent player is away due to the technical probllems recently experienced.

Would he/she not have a right to think the three remaining players were colluding?

If the big stack is going all in against you, all you have to do is wait for a hand and youwould be chip leader!

jordz16

If there are 4 players left, and its the bubble it has to be a dym? and if thats the case then yes it is cheating imo as he deliberately keeping one player in when it doesnt affect his winnings at all. if it was on another site and was just a regular sit n go with the top 3 paid in a laddered pay out structure then yes i think its ok because at the ened of the day you want to do whatever give you the biggest chance of finishing first.

bludreid11

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

In Response to "Unethical" or just plain cheating? : Absolutely not - it is excellent play, for the reasons others have explained. Purely tactical, certainly not unethical. One can understand why the two medium stacks were a bit chuntery, but the guy was playing his Big Stack perfectly. Not unethical, not against any rules.     Level 3 stuff.  
Posted by Tikay10

AS THE CHIP LEADER IS ASSURED OF 1ST PLACE, WHY IS HE KEEPING THE PLAYER SAT OUT IN THE GAME ?
123 PAID THE SAME, SO HE WANTS TO DICTATE THE MINOR PLACES.
KEEPING ONE PLAYER "IN " THE GAME, MEANS HE HAS SOME MOTIVE.
IF HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY PLAYER WHY ?
HOWEVER IF THE PLAYER SAT OUT IS HIS PAL THEN ITS DOWN RIGHT CHEATING.
CANT THINK OF ANY OTHER SCENARIO THAT HE WOULD WANT TO KEEP THE GAME GOING OR DO YOU ???

F_Ivanovic

I remember on the skypoker channel there was an analyst that retold a story about a live situation he saw once where some guy folded AA face up because he was abusing the bubble so much that he didn't want it to burst. I'm sure the analyst and others on the show said it was cheating - and think the ruling was that the guy got some sort of penalty for it?

Hence if folding AA pre-flop is deemed cheating, then this should be also - even more in fact because the player in 1st is guaranteed to win the pot 100% of the time if he just makes a bet against the away player (with AA it's only 80%)

@ JD: No, others are right - the optimal play is exactly what this guy is doing (if it's a normal SnG) If he just keeps on stealing the away players chips, he will go out in no time and the other 2 stacks can then go back to playing normal poker. If, however he keeps the away player alive but takes the chips of the other stacks he can make it so that when it gets to 3 handed he has a massive chip advantage.

DESERTTURK

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating? : AS THE CHIP LEADER IS ASSURED OF 1ST PLACE, WHY IS HE KEEPING THE PLAYER SAT OUT IN THE GAME ? 123 PAID THE SAME, SO HE WANTS TO DICTATE THE MINOR PLACES. KEEPING ONE PLAYER "IN " THE GAME, MEANS HE HAS SOME MOTIVE. IF HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY PLAYER WHY ? HOWEVER IF THE PLAYER SAT OUT IS HIS PAL THEN ITS DOWN RIGHT CHEATING. CANT THINK OF ANY OTHER SCENARIO THAT HE WOULD WANT TO KEEP THE GAME GOING OR DO YOU ???
Posted by bludreid11

thank you, CHEATING

MattBates

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating?:

In Response to Re: "Unethical" or just plain cheating? : AS THE CHIP LEADER IS ASSURED OF 1ST PLACE, WHY IS HE KEEPING THE PLAYER SAT OUT IN THE GAME ? 123 PAID THE SAME, SO HE WANTS TO DICTATE THE MINOR PLACES. KEEPING ONE PLAYER "IN " THE GAME, MEANS HE HAS SOME MOTIVE. IF HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY PLAYER WHY ? HOWEVER IF THE PLAYER SAT OUT IS HIS PAL THEN ITS DOWN RIGHT CHEATING. CANT THINK OF ANY OTHER SCENARIO THAT HE WOULD WANT TO KEEP THE GAME GOING OR DO YOU ???
Posted by bludreid11

The assumption is that its a normal SnG so CL isn't guaranteed of 1st place.

Lambert180

Well I assumed it was a regular sng not a dym because OP didn't say it was a dym, in which case he's playing perfectly. Also must be another site to be top 3 paid in a regular sng but that's irrelevant. Say payouts are £10, £20, £50, do you wanna get 3handed with 12k v 2k v 2k OR 14k v 1k v 1k? Obv the latter and its not cheating to play in a way that results in this.

As for the folding AA I guess its fine just don't show it. Don't see how you can get a penalty. You wouldn't or shouldn't get a penalty for open folding AA on the bubble of a sat if you were way above average.

belsibub

Skys view.

16.2. Collusion is a form of cheating in which two or more players either secretly exchange hole card information or otherwise form a cheating partnership to the detriment of other players either sat at the same table or participating in the same tournament. This includes but is not limited to ‘Chip Dumping’, ‘Rip Sawing’, ‘Stack Balancing’ and advising and/or agreeing to take specific actions with other players through the chat facility. By way of an example only, advising an opponent ‘Let’s check it down’, when another player is ‘all-in’ would constitute such conduct.