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Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs)

edited April 2014 in The Poker Clinic
I don't understand Gary.

If you have AA and it comes T 7 3, why are you thinking about folding to a single bet?

Comments

  • edited April 2014
    Here's a scenario I am struggling with and happens to me a fair bit.

    I am dealt my cards to discover I have a good pair (EG A's Q's, K's, J's Etc) I have often heard about people stating that the standard raise is 3x BB's, which I often do (Am I raising TOO small?) I don't want to raise too large here because if I end up having to fold my hand AFTER my hefty raise, ESP early on in a S&G or MTT, then I ATM as I am new I often find it difficult to rebuild a small stack.

    IF I do get a caller, (Which sometimes does occur) and a flop comes, I am quite often finding the flop ends being dry (EG 2,7,10). I am finding it very difficult to continue my hand when I get somebody open the betting in early position or UTG (EG 400 bet vs BB of 50) when all I can see is Ny-on ZILCH on the board, or at best the OPPY has potential for 2x Pair vs my Pocket Pair?

    What actions do I take in these scenario's? It's really making me feel bad at the moment when I am opening with pocket pairs only to be enforced to fold them against people BIG-BETTING me after the flop - which leaves me on a real downer of a situation (See above)

    SECOND Q
    I am often getting tempted to play hands EG A-10 or J-K or K-Q, do I:-
    FOLD
    CALL the openng bet (ESP if it's just a limp to match the BB's)
    RAISE (I am sometimes raising these hands, maybe only 3x BB's)

    Could the size of my raises be something which is giving me the problem? 

    Any help with these scenario's is appreciated, hope this doesn't make too tricky reading.
  • edited April 2014
    To answer your 2nd Q first

    Dont play those hands, it will get you in messy situations, stick to premium hands first

    Learn how to play AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, 1010, learn to maximise value from them, before expandin ur hand range to less stronger hands

    Play premium hands only and play them aggresively, i.e bet big on the flop, turn river etc
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs):
    I don't understand Gary. If you have AA and it comes T 7 3, why are you thinking about folding to a single bet?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    "I can see is Ny-on ZILCH on the board, or at best the OPPY has potential for 2x Pair vs my Pocket Pair?"
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs):
    To answer your 2nd Q first Dont play those hands, it will get you in messy situations, stick to premium hands first Learn how to play AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, 1010, learn to maximise value from them, before expandin ur hand range to less stronger hands Play premium hands only and play them aggresively, i.e bet big on the flop, turn river etc
    Posted by alex1229
    alex - thanks for your advice, will bear that in mind as I hadn't had this at the front of my mind as prominently as I should have done - kept thinking "top 10 hands" after watching a tip from Phil Helmuth courtesy of the WSOP computer game.
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs):
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs) : "I can see is Ny-on ZILCH on the board, or at best the OPPY has potential for 2x Pair vs my Pocket Pair?"
    Posted by GaryLaud
    If you are behind to a set or 2 pair, there is nothing really you can do unless you have some incredible reads
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs):
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs) : "I can see is Ny-on ZILCH on the board, or at best the OPPY has potential for 2x Pair vs my Pocket Pair?"
    Posted by GaryLaud
    I'm still confused.

    He shouldn't really call pre flop with any hand that makes 2 pair on that flop.

    T7, T3, 37 are all folds pre flop to a raise.

    What is much more likely is that he has AT/KT/QT/JT/9T, all of which are reasonable hands to call a raise with pre, and which will like the flop enough to bet.

    And we beat them all.....

    We should never be folding the flop in this situation.
  • edited April 2014
    pretty much what dohhhhh says. 


    Also are we playing tournaments or cash in regards to your opening sizing before the flop 
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs):
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs) : I'm still confused. He shouldn't really call pre flop with any hand that makes 2 pair on that flop. T7, T3, 37 are all folds pre flop to a raise. What is much more likely is that he has AT/KT/QT/JT/9T, all of which are reasonable hands to call a raise with pre, and which will like the flop enough to bet. And we beat them all..... We should never be folding the flop in this situation.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Having a laugh yeah?!
  • edited April 2014
    I was merely trying to give an example. IF I lead out with a decent pair (EG K's Q's Etc) what I am finding sometimes (this can be either in MTT's or S&G's, I don't really play cash as yet) is that I am raising with these hands, only to have my bet matched pre-flop.

    Then I am finding opponent's betting into dry flop's where the very most they could have ended up with is 2x Pair against my single pocket pair...What do I do next if I get a medium-large bet UTG?
  • edited April 2014
    Q1

    Flat flop. You are either wa/wb and you have position. With good reads you can sometimes raise but flatting is standard imo. 

    Q2

    Raise when opening or there are limps ahead. Raise more if there are limpers than if you opened.  If it's raised in front it depends. I wouldn't 3bet without good reads. Fold or call depending on reads. If you are unsure how to play them you can fold, esp v tight villains
  • edited April 2014
    He shouldn't really call pre flop with any hand that makes 2 pair on that flop. 

    *ahem*,..Yes....well. Shouldn't doesn't extend to everyone's vocabulary does it?

  • edited April 2014
    Gary said:
    I am dealt my cards to discover I have a good pair (EG A's Q's, K's, J's Etc) I have often heard about people stating that the standard raise is 3x BB's, which I often do (Am I raising TOO small?) I don't want to raise too large here because if I end up having to fold my hand AFTER my hefty raise, ESP early on in a S&G or MTT, then I ATM as I am new I often find it difficult to rebuild a small stack.

    Surely you are not going to fold AA and KK to a hefty raise preflop? Surely we want a hefty raise so we can come over the top? With QQ and JJ it depends but if you have a short stack and this happens you jam over the top 100% of the time.

    Gary said:
    IF I do get a caller, (Which sometimes does occur) and a flop comes, I am quite often finding the flop ends being dry (EG 2,7,10).
    I am finding it very difficult to continue my hand when I get somebody open the betting in early position or UTG (EG 400 bet vs BB of 50) when all I can see is Ny-on ZILCH on the board, or at best the OPPY has potential for 2x Pair vs my Pocket Pair?

    If you are the preflop raiser and you have position after the flop when someone donks (bets) into you and you have this type of hand you should raise nearly 100% of the time barring some exceptional read that he only does this with 2Pair or better. FWIW most players when out of position will check raise with hands this strong on the flop.
    As mentioned earlier, the guy betting mostly has a hand weaker than yours here so raising is correct.


    Gary said:
    SECOND QI am often getting tempted to play hands EG A-10 or J-K or K-Q, do I:-FOLDCALL the openng bet (ESP if it's just a limp to match the BB's)RAISE (I am sometimes raising these hands, maybe only 3x BB's)

    If they open limp and you have any of these hands in position preflop just raise the pot. If you are OOP pre you can call or just check.
    If they are very tight and raise from early position just fold either in or out of position.
    If they are loose (and fold to cbets a lot) and you are in position you can consider re-raising and then lead on the flop.
    Just some basic principles to get you started but as many others will say, your every move will be specific opponent dependant as no two players play the same, so do your best to take notes whenever you can in order to help you make the best possible decisions.
  • edited April 2014
    Not sure what you are saying still - if you raise pre with KK and the flop is T73 and someone bets into you, there are 2 options. Call and to re-raise. Choose whichever option you think will allow you to get the rest of your stack in. 
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Struggling with Dry Flop's (When playing with larger pairs):
    He shouldn't really call pre flop with any hand that makes 2 pair on that flop.  *ahem*,..Yes....well. Shouldn't doesn't extend to everyone's vocabulary does it?
    Posted by PuppetJack
    Well opponent is />10x more likely to have 1 pair than 2 pairs on this board, basically.
  • edited April 2014
    makes no sence to me this whole thread, whats not to like about a dry flop when u have AA or am i just playing far to loose :-)
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