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COLLUSION AND ONLINE POKER CAN IT REALLY BE STOPPED?
Well first of i will say that this is not a gripe or chunter im just going too ask for other people,s opinions and thoughts on what has happened recently on here. i may not write as well as some will but i hope that people will get what im meaning and we can all have a proper discussion on it
Well after the last week or so and the sit&gogate scandal i like many(i assume there will be many more)others are wondering how often collusion/cheating is happening right under our nose,s and im not meaning just sky im meaning any site you play on!
with so many ways of instantly connecting with others through various networking sites is there really anything poker sites can do too combat collusion and those that are willing too win by any measures available too them?
i will try and make a few examples and see what peoples thoughts are!
well the first example is obvious and its our own sit&gogate. this one was i would imagine with the programs sites have too detect suspicous betting patterns should have been picked up before the winners where announced and not when a fellow player points it out.. but then what can a site do when there are two seemingly different players on different ip addresses playing on the same table thats the way it is on every table!
there is the fact that the person has 2 hands too play every orbit so it would be quite easy for them too be able too play in such a way that it would look normal i.e just playing tight only playing premium hands and folding too 3 bets and the like! im pretty sure this would not be the easiest thing for a program too pick up on espeically given the player seemed too be of decent quality and new how too play and by his own admission had been playing on site for over 6 years so it was not a newbie mistake and no matter whether other people like it or not he done it out of pure and simple greed! and what if he has done it before maybe been having a bad patch and decided too have two shots at every pot.(im sure sky will be looking further back than the last month) and then posting in both accused names in the thread he was accused of cheating on
And have others sat down with a phone and laptop registered in the same 6 max with 2 accounts and then have 2 hands too play every time? im pretty sure a good player would be able too run amok doing that!
And then what about things like skype and so on how do we know people are not colluding through chat as they play how would the poker site they are playing on be able too prove that they are telling each other the hand they have and so on and effectively colluding/cheating? this one in my opinion is the most worrying one for me and here is a small example. there is 3 players freinds either in poker or life they decide well if the 3 of us sit at the same 2 tables we have 3 hands v 3 hands every orbit and now that would be a massive advantage they could quite easily force good players of hands by 3 betting and so on making it look like they both have monster hands yet then one of them just folds as soon as the outsider folds and one of the amigos have it?
i know there is quite a lot of poker pages on facebook and other sites ie pokerwinners,bankrollmob,raketherake and so on that people regularly sit and mentor others when they play poker through sites like skype and even the humble phone and there are quite a few groups/players from sky and any other poker site out there, who also do this. and please don,t take that as an accusation as it is not meant like that it is just too make a point.i know how good the sky community is for trying too help and improve players who are willing too ask and then listen too advice! thats what makes it such a great community.
like this from tikays thread. just another example of how easy it would be for like minded people too collude!
We'll swap phone numbers (by PM, NOT on the open Forum), & I'll play a PLO8 DYM (you must NOT play it) with you on the other end of the 'phone.
And I'll "think out loud" on every single hand, or action, & you can ask questions or whatever.
now that is not collusion that is just tikay offering too try and help someone that is struggling a bit and help improve they,re game which is fine.and just typical tikay.
but if they where both in the same game and on the phone it is total different but what can online sites do too stop this from happening. and whos too say this not happening on a table you are playing on right now?
Well hopefully i have written this without offending anyone it is just something that i thought would be worth having a disscussion on after recent events...all the best churchy
Well after the last week or so and the sit&gogate scandal i like many(i assume there will be many more)others are wondering how often collusion/cheating is happening right under our nose,s and im not meaning just sky im meaning any site you play on!
with so many ways of instantly connecting with others through various networking sites is there really anything poker sites can do too combat collusion and those that are willing too win by any measures available too them?
i will try and make a few examples and see what peoples thoughts are!
well the first example is obvious and its our own sit&gogate. this one was i would imagine with the programs sites have too detect suspicous betting patterns should have been picked up before the winners where announced and not when a fellow player points it out.. but then what can a site do when there are two seemingly different players on different ip addresses playing on the same table thats the way it is on every table!
there is the fact that the person has 2 hands too play every orbit so it would be quite easy for them too be able too play in such a way that it would look normal i.e just playing tight only playing premium hands and folding too 3 bets and the like! im pretty sure this would not be the easiest thing for a program too pick up on espeically given the player seemed too be of decent quality and new how too play and by his own admission had been playing on site for over 6 years so it was not a newbie mistake and no matter whether other people like it or not he done it out of pure and simple greed! and what if he has done it before maybe been having a bad patch and decided too have two shots at every pot.(im sure sky will be looking further back than the last month) and then posting in both accused names in the thread he was accused of cheating on
And have others sat down with a phone and laptop registered in the same 6 max with 2 accounts and then have 2 hands too play every time? im pretty sure a good player would be able too run amok doing that!
And then what about things like skype and so on how do we know people are not colluding through chat as they play how would the poker site they are playing on be able too prove that they are telling each other the hand they have and so on and effectively colluding/cheating? this one in my opinion is the most worrying one for me and here is a small example. there is 3 players freinds either in poker or life they decide well if the 3 of us sit at the same 2 tables we have 3 hands v 3 hands every orbit and now that would be a massive advantage they could quite easily force good players of hands by 3 betting and so on making it look like they both have monster hands yet then one of them just folds as soon as the outsider folds and one of the amigos have it?
i know there is quite a lot of poker pages on facebook and other sites ie pokerwinners,bankrollmob,raketherake and so on that people regularly sit and mentor others when they play poker through sites like skype and even the humble phone and there are quite a few groups/players from sky and any other poker site out there, who also do this. and please don,t take that as an accusation as it is not meant like that it is just too make a point.i know how good the sky community is for trying too help and improve players who are willing too ask and then listen too advice! thats what makes it such a great community.
like this from tikays thread. just another example of how easy it would be for like minded people too collude!
We'll swap phone numbers (by PM, NOT on the open Forum), & I'll play a PLO8 DYM (you must NOT play it) with you on the other end of the 'phone.
And I'll "think out loud" on every single hand, or action, & you can ask questions or whatever.
now that is not collusion that is just tikay offering too try and help someone that is struggling a bit and help improve they,re game which is fine.and just typical tikay.
but if they where both in the same game and on the phone it is total different but what can online sites do too stop this from happening. and whos too say this not happening on a table you are playing on right now?
Well hopefully i have written this without offending anyone it is just something that i thought would be worth having a disscussion on after recent events...all the best churchy
Comments
Didnt read it all tbh tho
Lots of players chat to each other via social media, be it Skype, facebook or whatever.... I do myself, there are people I chat to pretty much all the time when I'm playing and inevitably sometimes we end up on the same table during a tourney, don't think its happened in a sng because we make a point of trying to avoid each other... but when we do we do not discus our cards, in fact if anything it becomes more competitive... if I get to knock them out I get the bragging rights and vice versa.... and believe me there is a lot of slagging goes on..
The down side is some players do use it to their advantage and I've seen it happen. Player A is short stacked and player B calls the flop then folds to give player A some chips... and yes I did report it... it sucks
I'm not sure why on the face of it sky didn't appear to take any action over it, maybe its because unless a player openly admits to it even a copy of the conversation doesn't prove exactly who it was... only sky know the answer
Unless sky add something to the T and C's that say players must not use social media while playing or create something in the software to monitor it there are always those will try and cheat and personally I don't see how they can stop it if someone is hell bent on cheating they will find a way to do it... I'd guess its more likely to happen in sng's because otherwise player A and player B can't be sure they'll end up on the same table, either way I still think if caught they shouldn't just be banned they should be prosecuted... when TK was young thet use to hang card cheats!!!!!
Sit and gos are a different matter and I agree that the opportunities are there with the various chat options available now. But there's no way Sky can have a condition where you agree not to use Skype, Facebook etc. as there's simply no way to police that.
As for not being able to police it or stop I think that's what I said too although not in those exact words, I only suggested two possible examples but as your correctly point out they really non starters... but I have seen it happen and I'm sure your aware private facebook chat remains in your chat history and what I witnessed was pretty self explanatory. I offered it to sky but for reasons of their own they did not take up that offer.....
I would point out though dagg that it makes no difference to some people if its 3 quid or thirty quid, if they think they can get away with it they'll nick it......
I think your premise is correct. It can and will happen. Although mtts are less susceptible to premeditated cheating of this kind it can still happen. And although dyms are more susceptible it doesn't mean it happens a lot. Jac is a dym grinder yet he hasn't observed it.
At the end of the day we need to decide whether the potential of someone cheating outweighs the benefits we get playing.
And then it is a case of caveat emptor ie buyer beware. If you think there is too much cheating going on then don't play.
Mtts and plo8 dyms I'm happy to take the chance. Regular dyms maybe not. And this is where it comes in for sky to provide the info to enable us to have a feel good that the site is catching and penalising the cheats. More info = more confidence = more play.
Normally playing a sit n go on 2 accounts at the same table (which I think is been referred to here) wouldn't really have a major advantage. 2 buy in's with rake (10%) would mean both accounts would have to cash to make a profit. Say £11 DYM costs £22 for both accounts £20 1 cash £40 2 cashes.
The problem with the skill n go was with the sample size being 30 games somebody could play 30 £3.30 DYM's on 2 accounts total buy ins £6.60 x 30= £198. Given the fact if you qualify for the final sit n go I think the min cash was £300? (correct me if I'm wrong- I only saw the payout table once haha) If you are prepared to sacrifice 1 account to get the other onto the top 6 on the leaderboard that would only cost you 60p per game if your 1st account cashed. So in total that would only cost around £18 dependant on results.
A pretty basic mathematical error in my opinion.
One of the reasons I play on Sky is that I am sure there is far less collusion going on than on other sites because of the UK player base and the friendly nature of the site.
Stopping collusion is almost impossible IMO, but pretty rare, certainly at the levels most of us play at. After all if you're going to collude then surely you do so at a level that makes cheating worthwhile?