pocket 6's call or fold?

pkrscott72

was playing a low stake tournament. the chip leader of this tournament had just lost 3/4 of his stack. should i of called his all in? any tips on how to play this hand please

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
kgee	Small blind		20.00	20.00	7220.00
kjackson12	Big blind		40.00	60.00	6140.00
	Your hole cards	6 6
biggapc	Fold
pkrscott72	Raise		160.00	220.00	5598.75
avavava	Call		160.00	380.00	4208.75
ZAB	Fold
kgee	All-in		7220.00	7600.00	0.00
kjackson12	Fold
pkrscott72	All-in		5598.75	13198.75	0.00
avavava	Fold
kgee	Unmatched bet		1481.25	11717.50	1481.25
kgee	Show	A Q
pkrscott72	Show	6 6
Flop
		8 5 7
Turn
		10
River
		Q
kgee	Win	Pair of Queens	11717.50		13198.75

hhyftrftdr

Raise less pre. Easy fold to the shove, never in good shape this deep.

pkrscott72

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

Raise less pre. Easy fold to the shove, never in good shape this deep.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I thought this was aggressive play due to losing a lot of chips. Is this a 50/50 situation in where im going to win? or should i always fold? 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : I thought this was aggressive play due to losing a lot of chips. Is this a 50/50 situation in where im going to win? or should i always fold? 
Posted by pkrscott72

He possibly is steaming having lost a pot previously, but he's unlikely to have jammed A3/44 etc etc. So were either flipping at best or crushed, and we have over 100bb behind. Really no need to take the gamble.

Matt237

Min raise does the job here. You can never ever think about calling here with 6 6. We have about 140 big blinds? Only hand you should be getting 140 BB in before the flop is AA. Maybe KK

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

Min raise does the job here. You can never ever think about calling here with 6 6. We have about 140 big blinds? Only hand you should be getting 140 BB in before the flop is AA. Maybe KK
Posted by Matt237

If you have a good suspicoun opponent is steaming then I would definitely go wider than this. Doesn't matter that it's 140BB's deep. Suppose we think villain is shoving as wide as AT+, 44-JJ then folding QQ would just be horrible as with QQ we have 78% equity vs that range. TT has 71%. But 66 is in terrible shape with only 42% equity.

re. pre-flop raise size. 3x would be preferable but there's nothing wrong with going with 4x from that position especially if the table is quite loose pre and they're calling 3x raises fairly often.

pkrscott72

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : If you have a good suspicoun opponent is steaming then I would definitely go wider than this. Doesn't matter that it's 140BB's deep. Suppose we think villain is shoving as wide as AT+, 44-JJ then folding QQ would just be horrible as with QQ we have 78% equity vs that range. TT has 71%. But 66 is in terrible shape with only 42% equity. re. pre-flop raise size. 3x would be preferable but there's nothing wrong with going with 4x from that position especially if the table is quite loose pre and they're calling 3x raises fairly often.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

What pocket pairs should i call all in on? 

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : What pocket pairs should i call all in on? 
Posted by pkrscott72

Download Pokerstove or use http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=oh (change game to Holdem) - Just put what range of hands you think opponent is shoving (range = just every hand you think opponent is shoving with) and then experiment with different pocket pairs. In general if I think someone is tilting and shoving quite wide then I will call with 99 and better though. 99 is close though and can be folded but TT I will almost always call since 70% equity is v, v good.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : Download Pokerstove or use  http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=oh (change game to Holdem) - Just put what range of hands you think opponent is shoving (range = just every hand you think opponent is shoving with) and then experiment with different pocket pairs. In general if I think someone is tilting and shoving quite wide then I will call with 99 and better though. 99 is close though and can be folded but TT I will almost always call since 70% equity is v, v good.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

does stove still work ? 

Matt237

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : If you have a good suspicoun opponent is steaming then I would definitely go wider than this. Doesn't matter that it's 140BB's deep. Suppose we think villain is shoving as wide as AT+, 44-JJ then folding QQ would just be horrible as with QQ we have 78% equity vs that range. TT has 71%. But 66 is in terrible shape with only 42% equity. re. pre-flop raise size. 3x would be preferable but there's nothing wrong with going with 4x from that position especially if the table is quite loose pre and they're calling 3x raises fairly often.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

That's true but when you are 140bb deep there's no point taking the risk really. 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : That's true but when you are 140bb deep there's no point taking the risk really. 
Posted by Matt237

+ev is +ev doesnt matter if your 10bb deep or 10000000bb deep. 

goodylad21

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : +ev is +ev doesnt matter if your 10bb deep or 10000000bb deep. 
Posted by The_Don90

Don my man !! Thats terrible advice......It makes all the difference lol

pkrscott72

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : Don my man !! Thats terrible advice......It makes all the difference lol
Posted by goodylad21

Whats your advice? 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : Don my man !! Thats terrible advice......It makes all the difference lol
Posted by goodylad21

How, no it doesnt. If you beat their range you beat their range. It doesnt matter how deep you are. Obviously people adjust their range the deeper they are thus we adapt with that. But if a decision is +EV its +EV. Our stack size should effect that. 

pkrscott72

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : How, no it doesnt. If you beat their range you beat their range. It doesnt matter how deep you are. Obviously people adjust their range the deeper they are thus we adapt with that. But if a decision is +EV its +EV. Our stack size should effect that. 
Posted by The_Don90

Whats ev? 

seanallen

Expected value. Basically how many chips you expect to win or lose on average by making a certain play.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : How, no it doesnt. If you beat their range you beat their range. It doesnt matter how deep you are. Obviously people adjust their range the deeper they are thus we adapt with that. But if a decision is +EV its +EV. Our stack size should effect that. 
Posted by The_Don90

I think in tournament play a +ev move isn't always the best. If you are deep and are a skilled player who can chip up in small/medium pots against weaker players then why give away more equity than you need to. If you think you have an edge over the field/table then why get 150bb all in with say 65% equity when your edge is worth so much more? 

It's not the greatest example but my point is stack size should effect your decisions. Sometimes you can pass hands where you know your probably ahead most of the time but your position in tournament/table means you have better ways of accumulating chips so need to give away a bigger percentage of your edge. 

seanallen

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : How, no it doesnt. If you beat their range you beat their range. It doesnt matter how deep you are. Obviously people adjust their range the deeper they are thus we adapt with that. But if a decision is +EV its +EV. Our stack size should effect that. 
Posted by The_Don90

Never really played many mtts, but surely the tournament situation as a whole plays a part in determining whether a play is plus ev or not. If I was at a table full of deep stacked fish I wouldn't be calling off all my chips as soon as I thought I had  55% equity vs one of their ranges.

Matt237

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : I think in tournament play a +ev move isn't always the best. If you are deep and are a skilled player who can chip up in small/medium pots against weaker players then why give away more equity than you need to. If you think you have an edge over the field/table then why get 150bb all in with say 65% equity when your edge is worth so much more?  It's not the greatest example but my point is stack size should effect your decisions. Sometimes you can pass hands where you know your probably ahead most of the time but your position in tournament/table means you have better ways of accumulating chips so need to give away a bigger percentage of your edge. 
Posted by CraigSG1

This is my point. Big +1. It's a deep stack and slow structure aswell

The_Don90

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : I think in tournament play a +ev move isn't always the best. If you are deep and are a skilled player who can chip up in small/medium pots against weaker players then why give away more equity than you need to. If you think you have an edge over the field/table then why get 150bb all in with say 65% equity when your edge is worth so much more?  It's not the greatest example but my point is stack size should effect your decisions. Sometimes you can pass hands where you know your probably ahead most of the time but your position in tournament/table means you have better ways of accumulating chips so need to give away a bigger percentage of your edge. 
Posted by CraigSG1

Yes but that does change weather the situation is +Ev or not. It might be +Ev to get it in, but because of our edge that changes that. 

Obviously we then adapt to that. the 65% example is probably on of the better ones you can use. Theres many spots where i rekon i crush a range in an mtt where i fold because its like that and i feel i have an edge where my edge is more likely to get me chips than this spot. 

But surely that comes into weather a decision is +EV or not? At least it does for me. 

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : I think in tournament play a +ev move isn't always the best. If you are deep and are a skilled player who can chip up in small/medium pots against weaker players then why give away more equity than you need to. If you think you have an edge over the field/table then why get 150bb all in with say 65% equity when your edge is worth so much more?  It's not the greatest example but my point is stack size should effect your decisions. Sometimes you can pass hands where you know your probably ahead most of the time but your position in tournament/table means you have better ways of accumulating chips so need to give away a bigger percentage of your edge. 
Posted by CraigSG1

Firstly, OP here is very likely a recreational player to the game that is still learning, so it's doubtful he has an edge against the table. Unless you have a v good tournament record then you should consider your edge against the rest of the field as minimal at best. (This applies to probably some others that have replied here) 

If we have a minimal edge against the field then it is vital we don't pass up on +ev oppertunities. A good players edge doesn't just come from outplaying someone post-flop but it comes from making correct mathematical decisions. If we are passing up on spots where we believe we have 60% equity yet our opponent is calling in spots where he has 60% equity then even though opponent might be worse post-flop, he's in fact going to be a better player because he's making all the correct mathematical decisions.

As someone ^^ there said if there is a situation where we are deep stacked against 5 terrible players (preferably all passive) then by all means we can pass up on a 55% flip for our tournament life. Heck, I may reject a 65% flip on a table of 5 terrible passive players if it was for my tournament life. But these situations are very rare that they're not worth thinking about. If we were on a table of 5 terrble (but aggressive) players then there is no way you should pass up on a 65% spot.

And in general I'd say it's almost always going to be bad for the majority of players to pass up on a spot that they believe they have 15% (possibly even 10%) more equity than the BE equity they need to call (ie. they need 45% for a call to be ev, meaning they have to call if they think they have 55% equity and certainly if they have 60% equity) In any tournament, you have to take some gambles along the way to win - getting it all in as a 70% fave 5 times leaves you with a 16% chance of winning all 5. Getting into 5 flips gives you just a 3% chance of winning all 5. I know which one I'd prefer!!

Going back to this hand given the deep-stack structure I personally would want 60-65% equity at least to call it off. But I think majority of players should be looking at 55-60% equity. If you are regularly playing these tournaments and doubling your chip stack after an hour and a half without getting into flips then maybe you can consider having closer to 65% equity to call off a flip like this. But until that time don't be rejecting spots with 60% equity!

Slipwater

Pocket sixes... always a fold here. Even if the other guy is on tilt having lost most of his stack in the previous hand, you're rarely in good shape.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold? : Firstly, OP here is very likely a recreational player to the game that is still learning, so it's doubtful he has an edge against the table. Unless you have a v good tournament record then you should consider your edge against the rest of the field as minimal at best. (This applies to probably some others that have replied here)  If we have a minimal edge against the field then it is vital we don't pass up on +ev oppertunities. A good players edge doesn't just come from outplaying someone post-flop but it comes from making correct mathematical decisions. If we are passing up on spots where we believe we have 60% equity yet our opponent is calling in spots where he has 60% equity then even though opponent might be worse post-flop, he's in fact going to be a better player because he's making all the correct mathematical decisions. As someone ^^ there said if there is a situation where we are deep stacked against 5 terrible players (preferably all passive) then by all means we can pass up on a 55% flip for our tournament life. Heck, I may reject a 65% flip on a table of 5 terrible passive players if it was for my tournament life. But these situations are very rare that they're not worth thinking about. If we were on a table of 5 terrble (but aggressive) players then there is no way you should pass up on a 65% spot. And in general I'd say it's almost always going to be bad for the majority of players to pass up on a spot that they believe they have 15% (possibly even 10%) more equity than the BE equity they need to call (ie. they need 45% for a call to be ev, meaning they have to call if they think they have 55% equity and certainly if they have 60% equity) In any tournament, you have to take some gambles along the way to win - getting it all in as a 70% fave 5 times leaves you with a 16% chance of winning all 5. Getting into 5 flips gives you just a 3% chance of winning all 5. I know which one I'd prefer!! Going back to this hand given the deep-stack structure I personally would want 60-65% equity at least to call it off. But I think majority of players should be looking at 55-60% equity. If you are regularly playing these tournaments and doubling your chip stack after an hour and a half without getting into flips then maybe you can consider having closer to 65% equity to call off a flip like this. But until that time don't be rejecting spots with 60% equity!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Sigh.

GG Ivan, wp.

pkrscott72

How do i get tk to review this hand? Seems like there is a few opinions about this hand 

grantorino

Hand is a trivial fold

Also a +1 to fivanovic post. Your edge is probably not as big as you think. Also you reduce this edge when you make mathematically incorrect plays. You can maybe pass up on a very small percentage over break even call but that's it.

Also when people say their edge is worth more than 65%, how exactly do they calculate their percentage edge and what does it mean? Or do they just make it up?

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: pocket 6's call or fold?:

Hand is a trivial fold Also a +1 to fivanovic post. Your edge is probably not as big as you think. Also you reduce this edge when you make mathematically incorrect plays. You can maybe pass up on a very small percentage over break even call but that's it. Also when people say their edge is worth more than 65%, how exactly do they calculate their percentage edge and what does it mean? Or do they just make it up?
Posted by grantorino

The latter, it's mostly just guess work based on your experience. Suppose you've played on a bad/passive table 50 times in a sample you've mentally recorded and you've managed on average to double up 65% of the time then it might be fair to say you have an edge on these tables of at least 55% (can't really go any higher cause sample is prob to small) - but the bigger the sample size, the more certain you can say about how much edge you have playing on a table against these players.  In this situation you can pass up on 55% flips early on because you know that in 40 mins time you'll have on average double the starting stack. 

Like I said tho most people tend to over-estimate their edge and as we both pointed out part of the edge comes from making mathematically correct plays so if we pass up on too many of them especially against aggressive bad villains then we are going to be reducing our edge.

@ hhyftrftdr: I wasn't reffering to you if that's why you were sighing :P

daiw

Lmao snapppp fold wait for better spots. I dunno how u could call if blinds are small and you gt lots of chips even if you think he's tilting and shoving with anything u cnt call!!

daiw

Making bad call like tht could put you on tilt in other games it's really not worth it.