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50NL - Facing a 5bet V Good Laggy Oponent 200xBB Deep with AA

Lambert180Lambert180
edited April 2014 in The Poker Clinic
I've left villain's name in cos I'm sure he won't mind and the hand has already been mentioned on my diary and his. I've put a lot of my thoughts down on his diary so will just C+P and make the odd edit...

I think there are vvv few hands he'd legitimately 5bet for value v me 200xBB deep. It was awkward cos I know so often it's gonna be a bluff, and I didn't think I could make a non-all-in 6bet but if I shove he'll know I'm playing pretty honestly by this point and the only thing you might call with is KK if I'm lucky, and deffo folds QQ/AK imo but then he wouldn't be 5b/folding them in the first place, he'd just flat the 4b.

So I feel like I have to flat but then I still look super strong by flatting the 5b, and don't really know what else I can do postflop, the flop checkback seemed standard imo and would prob do that with 100% of my range, but don't wanna just check down all the way cos I don't think he's ever gonna stab after checking 2 streets. Was actually a bit worried at 1 point because he can have KK and maaaybe QQ which I'm obv behind to now... should I checkback turn too?

Meh dunno, maybe I got as much out of it as I possibly could.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
marcuscat Small blind  £0.25 £0.25 £24.24
Ariegent Sitout     
F_Ivanovic Big blind  £0.50 £0.75 £99.50
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • A
     
DevoDave Fold     
flexystash Fold     
Lambert180 Raise  £1.50 £2.25 £124.61
marcuscat Fold     
F_Ivanovic Raise  £4.00 £6.25 £95.50
Lambert180 Raise  £9.75 £16.00 £114.86
F_Ivanovic Raise  £20.25 £36.25 £75.25
Lambert180 Call  £13.50 £49.75 £101.36
Flop
   
  • 7
  • K
  • 2
     
F_Ivanovic Check     
Lambert180 Check     
Turn
   
  • Q
     
F_Ivanovic Check     
Lambert180 Bet  £20.21 £69.96 £81.15
F_Ivanovic Fold     
Lambert180 Muck     
Lambert180 Win  £47.95  £129.10
Lambert180 Return  £20.21 £1.80 £149.31
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Comments

  • IHadTrips7IHadTrips7
    edited April 2014
    I pretty much completely agree with your thinking here, just unfortunate he didn't have a more fireable flop. Would of played it the same.
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  • BigHawk89BigHawk89
    edited April 2014
    Think I'd still just shove cause your range of calling 5 bets is super narrow (AA/KK maybe QQ) and he isn't going to try bluff you off those hands post flop in a bloated pot. 
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited April 2014
    Wp.

    Wouldn't check the turn. Think your giving too many hands a freeroll that might have some equity (Gutshots/2pr draws etc)
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  • TPTP123TPTP123
    edited April 2014
    I dont like the 4bet sizing IP. Make it like apporx. £14 imo. 

    When he 5bets, i'm snap 6betting to like £48-55 to induce bruff. 

    As played cbet flop, if we're gonna close the action to extract the most value then cbet this board in position.  
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner
    edited April 2014

    Think about betting £5-£10 on the flop. Level the **** out of him. :)

    If he's going to fold for that amount, then we can start flatting 5-bets IP with a wider range against him, knowing it may be possible to bluff absurdly cheaply when we don't hit. This villain ain't going to like being so exploitable. He may pay us off in this spot or we can force him to be more honest with his future pre-flop play if he does fold.

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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: 50NL - Facing a 5bet V Good Laggy Oponent 200xBB Deep with AA:
    I dont like the 4bet sizing IP. Make it like apporx. £14 imo.  When he 5bets, i'm snap 6betting to like £48-55 to induce bruff.  As played cbet flop, if we're gonna close the action to extract the most value then cbet this board in position.  
    Posted by TPTP123
    This 
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited April 2014
    lol @ 6-betting to induce a bluff.

    I'm sure hero's 6-betting range is really balanced :)
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: 50NL - Facing a 5bet V Good Laggy Oponent 200xBB Deep with AA:
    lol @ 6-betting to induce a bluff. I'm sure hero's 6-betting range is really balanced :)
    Posted by 77Chris91
    It won't induce a bluff often, it's a tricky spot to get more money from once you get 5bet

    Yeah his 6b range is prob not that balanced. But is it any stronger than his 4b/c range? At least the 6bet puts a possibility of bluffs in our range
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: 50NL - Facing a 5bet V Good Laggy Oponent 200xBB Deep with AA:
    In Response to Re: 50NL - Facing a 5bet V Good Laggy Oponent 200xBB Deep with AA : It won't induce a bluff often, it's a tricky spot to get more money from once you get 5bet Yeah his 6b range is prob not that balanced. But is it any stronger than his 4b/c range? At least the 6bet puts a possibility of bluffs in our range
    Posted by grantorino
    200bb deep hero's flatting range is gonna be significantly wider than their 6-betting range. A 6-betting range prob contains AA/KK only. You just can't balance a 6-betting range unless your super deep and a decent villain is gonna know that. Your just never gonna level anyone with half a brain into 7-bet shoving here as a bluff. Just won't happen.

    If you flat IP hero's range is still really strong. However there may be a few bluff combos that hero decided to 4-bet bluff with that might be priced in to call the 5-bet 200bb deep. A2s-A5s etc. (Hands that have decent equity even against a tight range...)

    Imo when villain 5-bets you pretty much have to flat anything your gonna continue with.




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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited April 2014
    I agree with Chris regarding 6betting pre.

    As for the 4b size, it's been mentioned it's too small IP... I probably can go a little bit bigger because we're deeper but 3betting to 28xBB is too big imo. I'll be 4betting smaller V Ivan anyway because I'm 4bet bluffing V him more than most.

    Also I was always under the impression that we 3/4b smaller IP and bigger OOP. When we're OOP we're generally gonna have a stronger range anyway so can go bigger, plus it lowers the SPR which is more beneficial for us than them when we're playing OOP.

    When we're IP, we're gonna be 3/4betting more (a wider range) and we don't mind encouraging people to peel OOP against us anyway cos we should be coming off much better than them in 3/4b pots IP, especially as we've kept the SPR lower and so given ourselves more room postflop. Obv that applies to spots like above where we're 200xBB+ deep cos there's very little room to move in a 4b pot 100xBB eff

    Maybe I should have bet small on the flop, not sure...
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited April 2014
    I thought your 4 bet was too small but if your making that size most of the time with your bluffs/semi-bluffs/value hands then it s fine.

    I think we should be looking to play hands differently whenever we can against regs so I think we can definatley bet small on the flop. He should feel compelled to call with 1010-QQ and I guess he's rarely raising flop with AK either but it also gives him the chance to bluff raise or float so you may squeeze another bet out him on another street. 
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  • TPTP123TPTP123
    edited April 2014
    Also I was always under the impression that we 3/4b smaller IP and bigger OOP. When we're OOP we're generally gonna have a stronger range anyway so can go bigger, plus it lowers the SPR which is more beneficial for us than them when we're playing OOP.

    Your right about the pre sizing and SPR. Also, when its this deep and we have position, then,  I personally want extort the most out of being in position in deep spot and reduce that SPR so villain has to stack off. Our problem starts with the small 4bet imo, I'm still turning my hand face up and 6betting.  To hell with balance and GTO, why do we need to be unexploitable in this spot? 

    We dont.  We are not in a deep headsup battle  !!  

    I'm 6betting here cos I want villain to make a mistake post flop with a worse pair and suited connectors and low suited gappers that he could be getting into a mess with!!!! 

    Its criminal not to stack JJ+ here.  Also, We block 50% of suited aces... so no point discussing that.  





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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: 50NL - Facing a 5bet V Good Laggy Oponent 200xBB Deep with AA:
    Your right about the pre sizing and SPR.  Also, when its this deep and we have position, then,  I personally want extort the most out of being in position in deep spot and reduce that SPR so villain has to stack off. Our problem starts with the small 4bet imo,  I'm still turning my hand face up and 6betting.  To hell with balance and GTO, why do we need to be unexploitable in this spot?  We dont.   We are not in a deep headsup battle  !!   I'm 6betting here cos I want villain to make a mistake post flop with a worse pair and suited connectors and low suited gappers that he could be getting into a mess with!!!!  Its criminal not to stack JJ+ here.   Also,  We block 50% of suited aces... so no point discussing that.  
    Posted by TPTP123
    1. Vs another high volume reg balance is super important.

    2. Villain will not make a post flop mistake if we 6-bet because there folding all the hands you have suggested. Villain can only make a post flop mistake if we flat and allow them to.

    3. Lots of JJ+ hands aren't playing the hand this way (AK, AQ, JJ, QQ) Obv villain has air/KK+

    4. A2-A5s is still 8 combos. Hardly no point in including these as potential bluff combos.

    In short. Couldn't disagree more with your entire post.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited April 2014
    OK now I've seen a few replies I'll post mine.

    First thing to say is I'm unsure if Lambert could have played the hand differently and extracted any more value. I had Q8s in this spot and a timing tell pre and post flop made me decide that giving up was the best play. I think had I faced a small flop bet I'm pretty certain I was still folding. What might have been interesting would be to check flop + turn and then shove river since I don't think you would check 2 streets with a made hand so it would seem quite bluffy to me. I'm pretty certain I fold to any 6bet click back.

    @ Chris: I think I agree with TPTP here regarding balance. I'm really not that high volume on holdem cash as I mainly play omaha. I think I've only played Lambert a couple times recently at 50NL and only one of them times was a MC when we were both deep. Secondly, although this was a bit crazy pf from me it's still a rare spot for us to get into a 5-bet pot pre-flop like this. In rare spots exploitation is more important than balance IMO. Points 2 and 3 I agree with though. Point 4 - probably too many bluff combos. I usually just have A4s, sometimes A5s here plus some suited hand that I decide at the start of my session it will be a bluff hand pf. This session it was Q8s!

    I actually had Q8s in another hand where I 3b Lambert only for him to 4-bet me again. That time I just folded pre-flop tho.





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