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What to do with an overpair in a 3 way pot facing donk bets?

edited April 2014 in Cash Strategy
Quite an interesting hand here and am interested in peoples thoughts on both my own play, villains play and your own suggestions.
Here is the hand as played so far (I'll reveal some more after a few responses):
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Villain 1 Small blind  £0.05 £0.05 £19.95
 Big blind  £0.10 £0.15 £21.23
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
Fold     
Hero Raise  £0.35 £0.50 £45.72
Fold     
Villain 2 Call  £0.35 £0.85 £10.76
Villain 1 Call  £0.30 £1.15 £19.65
Fold     
Flop
   
  • 7
  • 7
  • J
     
Villain 1 Bet  £1.20 £2.35 £18.45
Hero Call  £1.20 £3.55 £44.52
Villain 2 Call  £1.20 £4.75 £9.56
Turn
   
  • 3
     
Villain 1 Bet  £2.38 £7.13 £16.07
Hero?

From what I had observed so far, villain 1 is loose and likes to make donk bets with a range of hands from absolutely nothing to top pair type hands. Hadn't seen them donk monsters as yet. Villain 2 is the shorter stack and somewhat of an unknown.
My target in this hand is really Villain 1 as he has the full stack and is somewhat loose. Hoped he has the jack here. When villain 2 comes along should we continue the trap or raise flop? The turn as played is a complete brick and further evidence to support my view he has the jack as I don't think he would "double donk" with air. So what's the best play here?

Comments

  • edited April 2014

    Great post, I must have been losing a ton of money through incorrect responses to donk bets!

    I suppose it comes down to how loose and aggressive villain 1 has been - is this the first time you've played him or have you built up notes over multiple sessions?

    I always credit donk bets, especially multiway, with the villain having at least some sort of made hand or obvious draw (which can be ruled out in this example) and there are very few players I've seen rock up with complete air (although are far easy to just call down in this sort of hand).

    That puts him on a bare J, a 7 or (less likely) JJ - or any complete air hand.

    What has happened previously when villain 1 has had his donk bets raised? Does he tend to fold to any aggression or happy to station off? I think I almost always flat the turn and let him bluff the river - potentially raising the river for value and feeling sick if getting raised!

    Villain 2 does add an interesting dynamic. With no reads you probably have to credit that he also has a piece of the flop, which then, unless villain 1 has air, increases the chance that one of them holds a 7 (as it is slightly less likely they both have a jack.)

    The downside to raising is that it feels like we end up getting shoved on by either player (and hating life) or folding out bluffs a lot of the time - which makes it seem like a poor play.

  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: What to do with an overpair in a 3 way pot facing donk bets?:
    Great post, I must have been losing a ton of money through incorrect responses to donk bets!
     
    No probs, hopefully we can get some good input there:)

    I suppose it comes down to how loose and aggressive villain 1 has been - is this the first time you've played him or have you built up notes over multiple sessions?
     
    Played a bit and his donking range is pretty wide, whether or not in multiway pots. He could easily have any other pp here from what i've seen him do.

    What has happened previously when villain 1 has had his donk bets raised? Does he tend to fold to any aggression or happy to station off?

    He will fold most of his range to a raise (apart from tp type hands or better) and has on some occasions continued if u flat.

    Villain 2 does add an interesting dynamic. With no reads you probably have to credit that he also has a piece of the flop, which then, unless villain 1 has air, increases the chance that one of them holds a 7 (as it is slightly less likely they both have a jack.)

    Villain 2 does make the hand more interesting, particularly with just a call. I think in these spots it's sometime easy to have your eye on one player and can easily forget about the other one:)

  • edited April 2014
    On that basis I think I'd personally flat turn to induce another bet on the river and raise that for value.

    If vil1 is going to go with it then potentially we can freeroll the hand if vil2 has the 7 (assuming vil 1 gets whole stack in with a PP / a jack).

    It's equally conceivable that vil2 has a hand like AJ/KJ and maybe QJ/JT - especially if he also has similar notes on vil1 and thinks you could be calling down fairly light as well... possibly?

    Interested to see how the hand develops though!
  • edited April 2014
    I'm not convinced villain 1 has a 7 with a full pot bet donk lead. He more likely has a Jack. Villain 2 I am more worried about and it's even more awkward as he is short. Flat calling is fine on a dry paired board as we are safe from 2 pair hands on future streets. 

    I'm basically just pot controlling to keep in all worse hands. Our main aim is to stack villain one as if villain 2 does have the seven we at least can make something off this hand. It's just as likely they both have a Jack as one having a seven. 
  • edited April 2014
    Doesnt look like this is going to get many more responses so ill post the next bit.

    I actually min raised villain 1's donk bet, pretty sure he had a jack and would shove over. However, villain 2 flatted this turn raise and villain 1 folded!

    Villain 2 now has just less than half his stack left and i'm first to act on a brick river. I assume shoving this is correct as we are too bigger pot to block bet fold. Check folding seems ridiculously tight. If he has a seven then that is just a cooler.
  • edited April 2014
    All you can do here is check call. That way you keep in more worse hands that would call your bet (that would put him all in). 
  • edited April 2014
    yeah i station down here and make a note for future ref then we can decide if we're gna raise for vbalue on river or fold turn etc
  • edited April 2014
    Very surprised if you're not up against the 7 (or better). Close to telegraphing your own hand with the turn min raise, yet villain still wants in on the pot.
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: What to do with an overpair in a 3 way pot facing donk bets?:
    Very surprised if you're not up against the 7 (or better). Close to telegraphing your own hand with the turn min raise, yet villain still wants in on the pot.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    He did actually have the 7. 74s of clubs to be precise:)

    You're spot on about telegraphing my hand here ott. General consensus seems to be to just flat turn. As played I bloated the pot for reasons suggested above and got it wrong. But as suggested, if I check and he jams, I should still be (sigh)calling?
  • edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: What to do with an overpair in a 3 way pot facing donk bets?:
    In Response to Re: What to do with an overpair in a 3 way pot facing donk bets? : He did actually have the 7. 74s of clubs to be precise:) You're spot on about telegraphing my hand here ott. General consensus seems to be to just flat turn. As played I bloated the pot for reasons suggested above and got it wrong. But as suggested, if I check and he jams, I should still be (sigh)calling?
    Posted by freshfish1
    Not sure on stack to pot ratio, but if it gets checked round on the turn (or you just call the donk lead) and the button jams for a pot sized bet (or similar) then yeah I'm calling and pretty happy about it tbh. Our hand is nicely underrepped. Sometimes we'll be up against the 7, more often it will be the J or another pair.

    It's when you get cold called out of the small stack that alarm bells should ring, especially after clicking it back.
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