Bit lost here!

LARSON7

Weird shove!

Don't really think i can call:)

Stew1Small blind £0.10£0.10£16.65Th1nkermanBig blind £0.20£0.30£22.31 Your hole cardsQA   TokerKatoCall £0.20£0.50£14.56BA14Raise £0.60£1.10£28.72LARSON7Raise £1.80£2.90£29.82Curt360x27Fold    Stew1Fold    Th1nkermanFold    TokerKatoFold    BA14Call £1.20£4.10£27.52Flop  6A7   BA14Check    LARSON7Bet £2.20£6.30£27.62BA14All-in £27.52£33.82£0.00LARSON7Fold    BA14Muck    BA14Win £8.07 £8.07BA14Return £25.32£0

CraigSG1

Arghhh! Hate those spots, depends solely on reads I guess. Against an unknown I just fold I think. Too many times this is 2 pair.

F_Ivanovic

I always call in these spots and am pretty happy about doing so unless I've been at the table a while and have a read that player is tight/passive. 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

I always call in these spots and am pretty happy about doing so unless I've been at the table a while and have a read that player is tight/passive. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

+1.

Unless we have reads/notes/history to say otherwise, lets play. Think in a vacuum the average random will roll over AJ much more than a set or 2 pair.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

In Response to Re: Bit lost here! : +1. Unless we have reads/notes/history to say otherwise, lets play. Think in a vacuum the average random will roll over AJ much more than a set or 2 pair.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

A lot of us go by personal experiances. In my experiance almost every time I have called he has two pair. 

Im talking cash, MTT wise this has been a mixture of weaker aces and PP's hoping to get a fold from a weak Aces as well as the dreaded 2 pr.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

In Response to Re: Bit lost here! : A lot of us go by personal experiances. In my experiance almost every time I have called he has two pair.  Im talking cash, MTT wise this has been a mixture of weaker aces and PP's hoping to get a fold from a weak Aces as well as the dreaded 2 pr.
Posted by CraigSG1

I also go by personal experience Craig. I used to play a lot of 10/20nl alongside MTT's. I wouldn't fold this vs a total unknown in a month of Sundays. If they flip over a better hand then so be it, and on to the next one, notes suitably updated.

FWIW, if this was the early stages of a tournament, I would snap fold in this exact scenario.

LARSON7

It's really unusual to see a jam like this so deep.

It generally is 2 pair (from experience).

It would be really unusual for some one to do this with AJ or Ace 10, or any ace to be fair.

Also would be unusual to see this with a flush draw (an all in jam) as opposed to normal raise.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

It's really unusual to see a jam like this so deep. It generally is 2 pair (from experience). It would be really unusual for some one to do this with AJ or Ace 10, or any ace to be fair. Also would be unusual to see this with a flush draw (an all in jam) as opposed to normal raise.
Posted by LARSON7

I agree. Without specific knowledge that our opponent is capable of doing this with weaker aces, PP's and draws as well as bluffs then I think we can just let go here with minimal invested.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

In Response to Re: Bit lost here! : I agree. Without specific knowledge that our opponent is capable of doing this with weaker aces, PP's and draws as well as bluffs then I think we can just let go here with minimal invested.
Posted by CraigSG1

Looks like Ivan and myself butter our bread differently Assuming we're rolled enough for the level, lets get it in and see what they have.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

In Response to Re: Bit lost here! : Looks like Ivan and myself butter our bread differently Assuming we're rolled enough for the level, lets get it in and see what they have.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Not so much being rolled for this level as the standard of players at said level.

Better players will generally think ' I've got two pair, let's try and get value ' where weaker players will think ' I have two pair, don't want to get outdrawn'. 

hhyftrftdr

You seem convinced that the villain has 2 pair here! Possibly 67, but there aren't many 2 pair combo's when we hold one of the aces. He might have some ridic draw like 89c but as previously said, vs a total unknown with no history, I call this all day long.

At the lower levels, and maybe this is a flaw in my thinking/logic, but I consider unknowns to be average at best, until proven otherwise. So yeah I call, and am quite happy with it a la Ivan. If they roll over better then we have good info and use that for future decisions vs them.

F_Ivanovic

It's a 3bet pot and we have top pair, 2nd best kicker. If we're not calling off here with this hand then what are we calling with? AcKc and AA only?

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

It's a 3bet pot and we have top pair, 2nd best kicker. If we're not calling off here with this hand then what are we calling with? AcKc and AA only?
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Pretty much this.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

It's a 3bet pot and we have top pair, 2nd best kicker. If we're not calling off here with this hand then what are we calling with? AcKc and AA only?
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Tbf people always seem to say stuff like this and I don't think it's that relevant. Of course we're happy with our hand when we see the flop in a 3b pot but future action changes things.

That's like saying' what so you get a flop of A78 with AK and you're not happy to call off a 500xBB overshove?' Obv I'm exaggerating with that one lol, but just cos we were happy with X flop doesn't mean we just ignore all other action.

Fwiw, in this spot if I'm readless against a random/non-reg then I probably do just call it off and take a note of whatever I see but I am definitely not loving it and wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see A6/A7/67 or BIG draws that don't wanna see a blank turn and have a hard decision like 89cc

shakinaces

If a pair of aces and good kicker is a snap-call here, I'm always overshoving my 2 pair hands for value from now on!

I don't think I ever expect to see worse here, best case is AJ and MAYBE AT.

Much more likely IMO it will be a set, 2pr, AK or at best it'll be the OESFD - but I think vs recs at lower levels they'll probably call that and try to get their made hands in asap.

That said, it's the sort of thing I probably call off and then pray to hit my Q and suckout, while adding to the player notes!

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

If a pair of aces and good kicker is a snap-call here, I'm always overshoving my 2 pair hands for value from now on! I don't think I ever expect to see worse here, best case is AJ and MAYBE AT. Much more likely IMO it will be a set, 2pr, AK or at best it'll be the OESFD - but I think vs recs at lower levels they'll probably call that and try to get their made hands in asap. That said, it's the sort of thing I probably call off and then pray to hit my Q and suckout, while adding to the player notes!
Posted by shakinaces

So, you're going to have a lot of 2 pair hands for value in this spot are you? Not only that, but you need to have a 2p hand and Hero to have AQ+ and be willing to call a shove. The probability of both them things happening must be worse than 1 in 40. But given what we've invested pre-flop we aren't going to win enough money back for the pre-flop call to be worthwhile.

I could also say that if AQ is an easy fold here then if I'm in villains shoes I'm shoving really wide as a bluff - gutters/SD's, FD's because I will be getting a fold so often.

liamboi11

me personally i`m calling and like others have said take note what they shoved with 

unknown_username

easy call he got a flush draw donk fold

 hahahah

DANDYDON87

Almost everytime I call off here I'm beat and left super tilted. Think it's more often a bad player with top2 than anything else. You don't need to lose a buy in with a one pair hand when there's <£4 in the pot. If the guy's gonna keep making weird moves like this you're gonna find better spots to get it in.

shakinaces

In Response to Re: Bit lost here!:

In Response to Re: Bit lost here! : So, you're going to have a lot of 2 pair hands for value in this spot are you? Not only that, but you need to have a 2p hand and Hero to have AQ+ and be willing to call a shove. The probability of both them things happening must be worse than 1 in 40. But given what we've invested pre-flop we aren't going to win enough money back for the pre-flop call to be worthwhile. I could also say that if AQ is an easy fold here then if I'm in villains shoes I'm shoving really wide as a bluff - gutters/SD's, FD's because I will be getting a fold so often.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Hi - sorry if post sounded sarky, wasn't intended.

What I was thinking was whether you could take this as a counter-intuitive line against decent regs (like Larson) if we think they are going to call more often than not when they have a decent Ace-sort of hand. 

It seems like you aren't going to need to get called too often to make it a long term positive play to counter all the times that people snap fold weaker hands.

Just a thought though.. appreciate I may be way off the mark with this thinking - no doubt skewed by a short-term results view of seeing this a handful of times vs randoms

jams88

If we are saying this is an unkown and we have no notes at this level its probs a fold imo. It would only take me an orbit or 2 to have a rough idea how people play but i see ALOT of unkowns at this level huge overbet shove all their value hands i very rarely see them bluffing here best case your againt A clubs with a fd even then not loving life watch a couple more hands try and get the measure if he is the kind of guy that bluffs here we will catch him nextime