Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it?

GaryLaud

Hi All, I have another example of where I have lost a major pot after running my King's into a flush - however, despite three clubs on the board, I failed to spot that there was one...YES a large bet was made on the river, but felt my hand was good, until the cards were turned over...Would you guys have had trouble folding your hand in this situation, or was I once AGAIN being a muppett?

Hand History #771864469 (23:25 27/04/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
GaryLaud	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.21
C	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£0.50
z	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£3.16
	Your hole cards	K K
z	Raise		£0.08	£0.18	£3.08
Dealer	Fold
GaryLaud	Call		£0.10	£0.28	£3.11
C	Fold
Flop
		2 5 Q
GaryLaud	Check
z	Bet		£0.16	£0.44	£2.92
GaryLaud	Call		£0.16	£0.60	£2.95
Turn
		5
GaryLaud	Bet		£0.24	£0.84	£2.71
z	Call		£0.24	£1.08	£2.68
River
		J
GaryLaud	Bet		£0.12	£1.20	£2.59
z	Raise		£0.92	£2.12	£1.76
GaryLaud	Call		£0.80	£2.92	£1.79
Z	Show	4 A
GaryLaud	Muck	K K
z	Win	Flush to the Ace	£2.70		£4.46

alex1229

Gary, forget about the flush you gotta look at a couple other things first.

Opponent raises to 8p, you have the 2nd best starting hand at poker, you want to build the pot up. you need to re raise him.

How come you didnt?

Also with the 2 clubs on the flop it would be a good time to raise and get him to make a decision, u let him reach that flush far to easilly

gazza127

You really make it hard for yourself in this hand.

Its a simple game really.  With big hands like this we reraise pre.  No need to be coy.  We can raise to 24p-30p pre.  Then its a simple game of bet biggish on flop, bet biggish on turn... and then vom on the keyboard if we think he was calling for a flush draw.... but given that we hold the Kc blocker there would be nothing to stop me just value betting three streets here.

I don't like the call pre.  It really puts us on the back foot.  The lead on the turn is perculiar... and the 12p bet on the river is genuinely pointless.  We may as well check.  When we bet so little we open the door to bluff raises so often so we always have to call with such a strong hand such as KK when we get raised.  As played if we bet 60p and then get shoved on we can fold as our bet is given more credit.  Plus if we bet 60p and he pops up with Qx and calls we've gotten more value.

imallin24

made a few mistakes here u should 3 bet pre to about 30p preflop u want to build the pot up u have played the hand so passive

CraigSG1

I get the feeling from your blog and this hand that you don't want to lose money and are playing far too passively and scared. 

Until you have a bigger BR or don't mind losing a big % of your BR then don't play cash. This hand is a prime example. No matter how you play this hand you will probably have lost it as not many players at 4nl will fold a suited ace especially when they flop a draw. That's poker. He hit it this time but we make our money from the three other times he doesn't hit his flush or ace. 

Your mistake is you let him dictate the hand when we have a monster hand. As everyone has said RERAISE pre. Why? You have 2nd best hand and we want to get value from all the other worse hands. For example, this hand villain min bets and then we raise to 30p and get called. There is now 72p in pot instead of 28p. Flop is 37J rainbow. We bet, he folds. We have got value and won a bigger pot. Now same pre but flop is same. We bet and he calls. Same turn. We bet big, he may now decide to fold his draw and again we win a bigger pot. If he calls and he misses river again we win more. If he hits we can now either check fold to a big allin or check call a small bet. The point here is you dictated the terms of being in the hand, had more chances to win bigger pots, got our money in while we was ahead and charged him to hit his draw. We play this 1000 times and we will win a lot of money!

The point is you ARE going to lose and you may lose 3 or 4 times in a row but we are also going to win long term so we need a bigger BR to absorb the bad variance. 

Good luck!

LARSON7

Hey Gary,

A few thing from all your posts

If you have AA KK or QQ like others have said, always try and re-raise these hands pre flop.

So someone makes it 8p you have kings, raise it anywhere from 24-36. If they re raise you do your best to try and get it in pre flop, so raise again.

On the flop you bet over 50% pot, on the turn you bet under 50% pot.

The bet sizing is better than some of the hands you have shown previously, were you were min betting, into 40p pots etc.

Try and keep your bet sizing at aroung 55-75% pot on ever street if you are going to bet.

On the river you bet 12 into 1.08, Try and void this, would be far better to check instead of making these kind of bets.

You are just learning and enjoying the game which is brilliant.

Best thing to do is focus on little small things and build it up from there.

So - big hands, especially aces and kings, raise and re-raise. If at all possible we want to get it in pre flop or to build the pot.

- bet sizing, instead of making 4p 8p bets into 40/50p pots try and make your bet sizing 55%-75% of pot. Do not bet small (8p into 60p) if you are unsure just check.

If you have a really strong hand at 4nl, you can even make a pot sized bet, so you have a flush/ straight etc, you can make pot sized bets as players at this level won't really worry about what you are doing, just the 2 cards they hold. But generally make it 55%-75% (if betting).

GaryLaud

Hey Guys.

The reason why I took the action I did was that in the first place, my because of my intial pre-conception of this being a tight table, as I had previously gotten a couple of big hands AA's and JJ's and had raised pre-flop around 3-5BB's. for my last two attempt's I had gotten fold's all around and slow-played in an attempt to "build the pot".

It's become abundantly clear from the reviews I have been reading thus far, that I clearly made a major error in Judgement here and have let the action take it's own course and let my opponent dictate the action and duly be rewarded, rather than take the situation "by the scruff of the neck"

Thanks ever so much for the reviews thus far, and the really basic and easy to follow explanations posted.

alex1229

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it?:

Hey Guys. The reason why I took the action I did was that in the first place, my because of my intial pre-conception of this being a tight table, as I had previously gotten a couple of big hands AA's and JJ's and had raised pre-flop around 3-5BB's. for my last two attempt's I had gotten fold's all around and slow-played in an attempt to "build the pot". It's become abundantly clear from the reviews I have been reading thus far, that I clearly made a major error in Judgement here and have let the action take it's own course and let my opponent dictate the action and duly be rewarded, rather than take the situation "by the scruff of the neck" Thanks ever so much for the reviews thus far, and the really basic and easy to follow explanations posted.
Posted by GaryLaud

On the flip side if you have been raising quite a few hands pre flop, your re raises will be given less credit..?

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it?:

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it? : On the flip side if you have been raising quite a few hands pre flop, your re raises will be given less credit..?
Posted by alex1229

Well, yay and nah, because what I was saying was I had raised occasionally but usually when I felt I had a hand sufficient to Justify raising. However, on most of the tmes I had previously done this all it had got me paid is the blinds, and i always remember the saying "build the value of the pot" hence the actions I decided to take on this occasion, and clearly they were the wrong ones. 

Nuggy962

Hi Gary

As others have said the reraise pre is a must. If everyone is folding pre and you have a read table is tight or one or two players are focus on them to steal or make moves in position.

This way when u get a genuine hand you may get at least one street value.  Only advise I would add other than what has been correctly stated is cash is all about the small and medium pots. I would much prefer to win several small pots I was in control of and then get away from large one where I was not sure than play too tight and just try and get it all in with a premium. Winning smaller pots bankrolles you into a favourable posistion.

Ok, in this hand if he calls your reraise pre it probably goes all in on the flop, he would of had 11 outs (8 flush as u had Kc and 3 aces) so your are 66% favourite! Yes you will loose sum but win more! 

Hope you run well, and if I see you on tables I will be careful if you just call

Best of luck

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it?:

Only advise I would add other than what has been correctly stated is cash is all about the small and medium pots. I would much prefer to win several small pots I was in control of and then get away from large one where I was not sure than play too tight and just try and get it all in with a premium. 
Posted by Nuggy962

Yes, Well from here on it, I am going to be trying to do JUST that - just play & stick to small pots and trying to gradually build up. FWIW, I have looked at my recent hand history, and other than a few HUGE Losses, (Including a MONSTER that was over DOUBLE what was on this topic, which I won't go into as I know the errors Ive made already) I've been playing pretty good, so I am very hopeful that I sld very much learn from my errors. Otherwise I am going to be kissing goodbye to the rest of my bankroll, pretty much immediately.

davelufc

Not a cash hand but I think ur a bit too passive fella.

Basic poker here, shove or fold.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
davelufc	Small blind		75.00	75.00	1930.00
bigster82	Big blind		150.00	225.00	1815.00
	Your hole cards	6 7
jjwarrenjj	Raise		300.00	525.00	3227.50
GaryLaud	Call		300.00	825.00	1390.00
curly1963	Fold
BMTHfist	Call		300.00	1125.00	6785.00
davelufc	Fold
bigster82	Fold
Flop
		8 4 9
jjwarrenjj	Check
GaryLaud	Check
BMTHfist	Check
Turn
		A
jjwarrenjj	Bet		300.00	1425.00	2927.50
GaryLaud	Call		300.00	1725.00	1090.00
BMTHfist	Call		300.00	2025.00	6485.00
River
		K
jjwarrenjj	Bet		450.00	2475.00	2477.50
GaryLaud	Call		450.00	2925.00	640.00
BMTHfist	Call		450.00	3375.00	6035.00
jjwarrenjj	Show	10 A
GaryLaud	Muck	Q K
BMTHfist	Show	A 10
jjwarrenjj	Win	Pair of Aces	1687.50		4165.00
BMTHfist	Win	Pair of Aces	1687.50		7722.50

PuppetJack

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it?:

do your best to try and get it in pre flop, so raise again.
Posted by LARSON7

Nothing else I can emphasise really.

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it? : Well, yay and nah, because what I was saying was I had raised occasionally but usually when I felt I had a hand sufficient to Justify raising. However, on most of the tmes I had previously done this all it had got me paid is the blinds, and i always remember the saying "build the value of the pot" hence the actions I decided to take on this occasion, and clearly they were the wrong ones. 
Posted by GaryLaud

Slow playing Monster hands does offer the opportunity to score a big pot

IF...

• a Fish follows you in cheap.
• Doesn't get any huge part of the flop
• Calls you in the hopes of Improving
• Doesn't imporove to overtake you
• is loose enough to call you to showdown with a marginal or medocre holding

All other times you lose. ...& how many times will that fish follow you in with a raggy ace and then hold onto it like it's the nuts? and when that river yields an Ace, - you're in a world of hurt.

in short - Not advised.

walesboy

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it?:

In Response to Re: Ran K-K's into a flush - Could I have avoided it? : Well, yay and nah, because what I was saying was I had raised occasionally but usually when I felt I had a hand sufficient to Justify raising. However, on most of the tmes I had previously done this all it had got me paid is the blinds, and i always remember the saying "build the value of the pot" hence the actions I decided to take on this occasion, and clearly they were the wrong ones. 
Posted by GaryLaud

Hi Gary

At nl4 don't let past hands dictate your play. Strong hands should always be raised or re-raised. The previous hands were just unlucky that no one had a hand they wanted to play with. If it carries on though you could always try raises with less strong ones to see if they fold to them also. 

Good luck