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no justice

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancebdr79Small blind £0.05£0.05£9.35argoBig blind £0.10£0.15£22.71 Your hole cardsJJ   Koo nRaise £0.30£0.45£6.12rivermunkyRaise £1.05£1.50£46.09longman912Call £1.05£2.55£19.31bdr79Fold    argoCall £0.95£3.50£21.76Koo nCall £0.75£4.25£5.37Flop  AJA   argoCheck    Koo nAll-in £5.37£9.62£0.00rivermunkyCall £5.37£14.99£40.72longman912All-in £19.31£34.30£0.00argoFold    rivermunkyRaise £27.88£62.18£12.84rivermunkyUnmatched bet £13.94£48.24£26.78Koo nShowA10   rivermunkyShowJJ   longman912ShowQA   Turn  9   River  9   Koo nWinFull House, Aces and 9s£9.89 £9.89longman912WinFull House, Aces and 9s£36.95 £36.9

Comments

  • edited May 2014
    Ouch. . .  I had something like that happen to me once. . . .

    Odds of the two nines showing? 4/47 x 3/46 = 12/2,162 = c179-1. If you visit here:
    http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem
    you can punch the hands in to see your win probability at the point of commitment.

    Just remember - game of skill    ;-)

    (a Dutch court says so).



  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    Ouch. . .  I had something like that happen to me once. . . . Odds of the two nines showing? 4/47 x 3/46 = 12/2,162 = c179-1. If you visit here: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem you can punch the hands in to see your win probability at the point of commitment. Just remember - game of skill    ;-) (a Dutch court says so).
    Posted by Goethe


    Just remember2 - its all completely random and unpredictable…… allegedly.


  • edited May 2014
    . . . about as unpredictable as British weather?
  • edited May 2014
  • edited May 2014
    Sorry . . . SoH radar is on the blink this morning. Is that a generic stock response to all things "variance" or are you serious?
  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    Sorry . . . SoH radar is on the blink this morning. Is that a generic stock response to all things "variance" or are you serious?
    Posted by Goethe
    Hey statto,

    My post percentages are as follows...

    76.348% sarcasm

    23.279% total bollo x

    .373% helpful advice

    Hope this helps.
  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    Ouch. . .  I had something like that happen to me once. . . . Odds of the two nines showing? 4/47 x 3/46 = 12/2,162 = c179-1. If you visit here: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem you can punch the hands in to see your win probability at the point of commitment. Just remember - game of skill    ;-) (a Dutch court says so).
    Posted by Goethe
    What a load of #*@$!!!!

    When the money goes in he's 68% fav!! Thats all that really matters and means he loses one in 3. 

    yes the odds of specifically two 9's is 170 odd to 1 but you're forgetting it could be any running pair. Giving that the turn will be dealt and will be "a card" the odds of the river pairing the turn are 3/46. so 1 in 15 times the board pairs the turn and river!

    Bad beat yes but out of the realms of possibilities I don't think so! If you roll a dice and I bet it'll be a 5 or 6 and it is a 5 or 6 would you cry this much?! 




  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    In Response to Re: no justice : What a load of #*@$!!!! When the money goes in he's 68% fav!! Thats all that really matters and means he loses one in 3.  yes the odds of specifically two 9's is 170 odd to 1 but you're forgetting it could be any running pair. Giving that the turn will be dealt and will be "a card" the odds of the river pairing the turn are 3/46. so 1 in 15 times the board pairs the turn and river! Bad beat yes but out of the realms of possibilities I don't think so! If you roll a dice and I bet it'll be a 5 or 6 and it is a 5 or 6 would you cry this much?! 
    Posted by jdsallstar
    68.44% actually, don't upset the Vorderman fan club president.
  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    In Response to Re: no justice : What a load of #*@$!!!! . . . .
    Posted by jdsallstar
    Thank you for sharing that . . . .

    I did include the link to the other web page so the OP could punch in the cards to determine exactly what you reported (I didn't do it).

    Personally, I think there's a little bit more attempting to quantify the variance "thing", than the purely relying on the win/loss probabilities going into a contest. You may think otherwise and that's your prerogative. We'll just have to agree to differ.

    Take a scenario where you're playing a game that's a roll of a dice - odds you win, evens you lose; very simple. At the point of commitment you've a 50% probability of winning, and the same for losing. You lose ten contests on the trot. Not beyond the realms of possibility, and within statistical norms (3xStdDev). But what if everyone of those times you lost, it was the result of a six being rolled (specific outcome probability as opposed to just the win/loss probability)- what would your thoughts be then? Just one of those things - just some more variance to get over? I worked this out at being a six standard deviation plus occurance (using a spreadsheet of course).

    If you look on this page at Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
    . . . you can see what the odds of a six standard deviation outcome is (table about 2/3rds of the way down the page).

    Now What conclusion would you draw for this succession of outcomes?

    This is a simple example that does illustrate the difference in how you measure things. The issue with poker is, for many reasons, it's imposible to put any result into a similar context.

    For the record, I agree with the last bit you wrote - I wouldn't consider this a bad "beat", but just a case of being "unlucky". We've all been on the end of far worse.


    Good #*@$!!!! cards.   :-)
  • edited May 2014
    I stopped maths at a level (thank God lol) so standard deviation has long been forgotten about. 

    Regarding specific outcomes again I think you're calculating it wrong or approaching it from the wrong way. Yes he lost to two running nines but you should be looking at the odds of any running pair which is around 1 in 15.

    If I lost to 6 running 6s in your example I would be quite surprised as the chance 6 rolls being the same are about 1 in 8000. Which of course is slightly different to 1 in 15.

    As for quantifying the variance he wins 68% (68.44 thanks Dave lol) and loses 32% any win rates that differ from these are his variance be it positive or negative. Working the odds of how specifically the cards fall is pretty pointless. It's a bit like in the dice example saying what are the odds of you losing if the numbers rolled are 2 then 4 then 4 then 6 then 2 then 6. That wouldn't appear to be a strange outcome but when you calculate the odds of those specific numbers it would appear impossible.
  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    . . . . If I lost to 6 running 6s in your example I would be quite surprised as the chance 6 rolls being the same are about 1 in 8000. Which of course is slightly different to 1 in 15.
    Posted by jdsallstar
    It was ten on the trot, but you get the point - ten on the trot is getting close (IMHO) to a mathematical impossibility (it's actually greater odds than that of winning the lottery on an average week), so it wouldn't be unreasonable to come to the conclusion that the dice is loaded.
    Working the odds of how specifically the cards fall is pretty pointless.
    I grant you that back-working the odds can render one paranoid, and comes with a health warning, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's pointless - depends what you're looking at. If you're of the view that everything's beyond all question it probably is. If you look at some of the telephone number to one coincidences that occur (I've personally seen a combination of cards being served up that worked out to six figures to one (c4.4SD) although it will happen to someone, sometime), and have nothing to hold them in context against (ie global stats), then you might consider a degree of head scratching can be forgiven. In theory, this particular occurance should only have happened around 80 times since SkyPoker started (the site now has over 8 million hands dealt out on the sheet?). I've always wondered what the actual number is - I suspect nobody apart from the variance fairy really knows.

    There's luck, bad luck, very unlucky, "I don't believe it", "Nah . . . . " and then there's "hmmm  . . . . ." In the absence of any hard stats being published to take a look at and analyse (I don't think a single online poker site provides global stats data) I remain one of the "hmmms", although I do keep an open mind. But that's another story.

    Cheers.

    :-)

  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    In Response to Re: no justice : Hey statto, My post percentages are as follows... 76.348% sarcasm 23.279% total bollo x .373% helpful advice Hope this helps.
    Posted by davelufc
    Thanks for clarifying that. Better with numbers than words . . . . .
  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice: It was ten on the trot, but you get the point - ten on the trot is getting close (IMHO) to a mathematical impossibility (it's actually greater odds than that of winning the lottery on an average week), so it wouldn't be unreasonable to come to the conclusion that the dice is loaded. I grant you that back-working the odds can render one paranoid, and comes with a health warning, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's pointless - depends what you're looking at. If you're of the view that everything's beyond all question it probably is. If you look at some of the telephone number to one coincidences that occur (I've personally seen a combination of cards being served up that worked out to six figures to one (c4.4SD) although it will happen to someone, sometime), and have nothing to hold them in context against (ie global stats), then you might consider a degree of head scratching can be forgiven. In theory, this particular occurance should only have happened around 80 times since SkyPoker started (the site now has over 8 million hands dealt out on the sheet?). I've always wondered what the actual number is - I suspect nobody apart from the variance fairy really knows. There's luck, bad luck, very unlucky, "I don't believe it", "Nah . . . . " and then there's "hmmm  . . . . ." In the absence of any hard stats being published to take a look at and analyse (I don't think a single online poker site provides global stats data) I remain one of the "hmmms", although I do keep an open mind. But that's another story. Cheers. :-)
    Posted by Goethe

    Back working the odds is definitely pointless the way you have done here. You make it sound like he lost to a 170 to 1 shot when he didn't. He lost to a 1 in 3 shot which had could have happened in many combinations. 1 of which was running 9s. Any 10, any q, the last ace or any running pair saw him beat. 

    The running pair was a 15 to 1 chance. Regardless of what card the turn was he faced 10 cards that would beat him on the river. 

    Stop chasing fairy tales!

    P's I'd love to see/hear  your 1million+ to 1 run out
  • edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: no justice:
    In Response to Re: no justice : Back working the odds is definitely pointless the way you have done here. You make it sound like he lost to a 170 to 1 shot . . .
    Posted by jdsallstar
    I don't think I said that. I said that the odds of losing to this combination of cards worked out at 170-1, and then invited the OP to visit site "x" and plug in the cards to see what his win probability was at the point of commitment. BIG BIG difference, as you rightly point out.

    My example was c100K-1 - if my memory serves me right the odds of the specific cards appearing on the flop (allowing for those in hand) was c99-1 (which was unusual in itself _ I thought so anyway) and then the turn and river turned up the only two cards that could take the pot (2/47 x 1/46 = 2/2162). You do the sums. . . . .  I think the win prob at the point of commitment was in the region of 90%+. Great material for a TV sitcom or a gangster movie. I should say I've never seen similar circumstances since, but I live in hope.

    I think the biggest fairy tale is that this is a game of skill? Of course it is . . . .


  • edited May 2014
    but the odds of losing to this combination of cards was not 170 to 1 it was 15 to 1!!  

    Of course it's a game of skill - long term skill!! yes there'll be short term fluctuations positive and negative. hence why good players will go on bad runs and poor players will go on good runs but long term the good player will win and the poor player will lose. 

    just sharkscope some long term losers and winners - their graphs are remarkably straight for a game that DOES involve a lot of luck. If skill wasn't as much of a factor these graphs would not and could not be that striaght. How else can you explain these graphs over thousands of games?
  • edited May 2014
    I wish that a Q came on turn then my hea wouldn't hurt after reading all this!!

    Haha great post and comments! 

    And unlucky fella


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