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Cooler or just bad?

LARSON7LARSON7
edited May 2014 in Tournament Strategy

It was a full ring MTT, £8.80 buy in.

There is 25/26 players left, 9 places are paid.

Blinds are 300/600, with a 100 ante. I've been coasting had really nice tables and chipped up to 21k.

I'm moved to a new table.

UTG i pick up Jacks. I min raise to 1.2k, UTG + 1 calls, guy in lateish position, raises to 4k.

I have him covered just. I am currently 5/26 he is 6/26, if this goes all in it's for the tournament chip lead.

Was thinking about folding, but called.

Was a really low rain bow flop (9 high). I check, he jams i call.

His range here is mostly but not exclusively, AK, AA, QQ, KK

I only beat AK, even though it's a good flop for Jacks probably should just fold.

Probably a fold pre 2. Thoughts? Thanks:)

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Comments

  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited May 2014
    i allways feel like im being squueezed in spots like this, come back over the top and say fu** you in the chatbox would be my advice or fold either ones fine :-)
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  • Matt237Matt237
    edited May 2014
    After calling pre flop you cant fold that flop, one of the better flops you can hope for. Pre i think all options are fine to be honest, lean towards a call
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  • ZIPPY146ZIPPY146
    edited May 2014
    hi larson,
    Utg raise is difficult and vunerable position to raise from.so i tend to x3 them,especially with jj 10s qq.if u r raised from late position,reraise and this will tell you where ur.rereraise get out of there , call proceed with caution.He might just fold,if it is a squeeze.
    gl larson
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  • chicknMeltchicknMelt
    edited May 2014
    if your folding JJ pre on the bubble you are just going to get constantly abused by good players. saying that though, I think its fine to fold vs a nit. vs anyone agro i'm looking to GII. in an $8.80 BI there will be a higher % of nitty players with value weighted 3bet ranges on the bubble - (in a bigger BI tourney, i'd expect there to more regs/agro players etc that will 3bet very wide in this spot) so readless its possibly a fold, but it depends on some other factors...


    do you have any kind of read on how the player plays? 


    as played, there is about 9k in the pot and villain shoves for around 16k on a 9 high rainbow flop. If the villain really does have QQ+ then i'd fully expect a smaller bet (like 4k to induce calls from worse/spews from you). you HAVE to get JJ in here. if he shows up with QQ+ then its just UL. vs a good villain, who knows your game, i guess it could be a level attempt, but again, depeds on opponent.


    btw, i dont like Zippy's comments on raising different amounts with different hands. its abolutely fine to raise differetn amounts for different positions though, but I think early tournament that has alot more credit than late on with short stacks. I'm always min r pre when average stacks are < 40bb in general.





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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    hi larson, Utg raise is difficult and vunerable position to raise from.so i tend to x3 them,especially with jj 10s qq.if u r raised from late position,reraise and this will tell you where ur.rereraise get out of there , call proceed with caution.He might just fold,if it is a squeeze. gl larson
    Posted by ZIPPY146
    dont like this advice at all, ur virtually telling him to 4bet a value hand and turn into a bluff to find out were he is, were either 4betting to get it in or were not 4betting at all, hes too shallow to 4bet fold, it would be a massive mistake to do this!!!
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  • LARSON7LARSON7
    edited May 2014
    He had kings.

    I'm brand new to the table, it's literally the 1st hand at the new table.

    So totally readless here.

    In this type of game the 3 bet, especially given the sizing, is quite nuttish.

    Prob just a fold pre.

    On the flop when he over bet jams the flop, like you said CM most people would definatly bet smaller on the flop, to get it in on turn with QQplus. Or flop if i jam.

    If i had just folded, i've only lost 1.2k and have a great chance of running deep, with better spots.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited May 2014
    Yeah decision needs to be made pre-flop really. If you have a read that says they are AK heavy with a particular sizing you can call and get it in on non A/K flops but otherwise I would fold/shove pre. Mostly lean towards fold when someone 3-bets my UTG open.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited May 2014
        Hi L.
         New to table, m= !2, . He has similar m so i would be worried here and narrow his range ? Surely with his stack size it is one which if 4bet he will NOT climb down from, and could expect being only utg+1, after 3 betting you. Consequently you could narrow his range further to KK+,{ AK+(only if he feels ready to gamble)} Your M value and position should say fold as you can't call a fearless 3 bet. You dont know if he is a maniac as first hand.
     
       Consequently, i think fold and peruse the table for a few hands first.

    PS I am surprised when you say winning the stack would make you chip leader. So 42k is csi=23 and with 26 left.

        Have i got this wrong because im adding 9x100 to the blind and dividing into ss to get csi as i dont normally play mtt's with anti's? If so your m value gets into the 'action needed promptly' catagory much quicker doesnt itand the T becomes a shove fest doesnt it. How does this change shove ranges etc anyone?
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited May 2014
    Don't forget that he is afraid of your stack too! I can't envisage anyone in that situation shoving with AK. It just won't ever happen.

    Your big decision (though it might seem horrible) is pre-flop.You must 4-bet him and snap fold to a shove. This can leave you with maybe 15BBs and still a fighting chance.
    Against bigger or smaller stacks the strategy could be completely different, but as presented he is as afraid of you as you are of him.

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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    Don't forget that he is afraid of your stack too! I can't envisage anyone in that situation shoving with AK. It just won't ever happen. Your big decision (though it might seem horrible) is pre-flop.You must 4-bet him and snap fold to a shove. This can leave you with maybe 15BBs and still a fighting chance. Against bigger or smaller stacks the strategy could be completely different, but as presented he is as afraid of you as you are of him.
    Posted by BigBluster
    What?!
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad? : What?!
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Did you read the other sentences?

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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    Don't forget that he is afraid of your stack too! I can't envisage anyone in that situation shoving with AK. It just won't ever happen. Your big decision (though it might seem horrible) is pre-flop.You must 4-bet him and snap fold to a shove. This can leave you with maybe 15BBs and still a fighting chance. Against bigger or smaller stacks the strategy could be completely different, but as presented he is as afraid of you as you are of him.
    Posted by BigBluster
    look at his stack size, u dont 4bet fold and turn jacks into a bluff here, what are you thinking of
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad? : look at his stack size, u dont 4bet fold and turn jacks into a bluff here, what are you thinking of
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Instead of saying 'what are you thinking of' produce some argument or at least some mathematics to counter this play.


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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad? : Instead of saying 'what are you thinking of' produce some argument or at least some mathematics to counter this play.
    Posted by BigBluster
    Mathmatics? Ok. This would be 100% the wrong play.

    That's better.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad? : Mathmatics? Ok. This would be 100% the wrong play. That's better.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    After careful study of your calculations and detailed analysis of your computations, how could I possibly disagree?

     
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad? : Instead of saying 'what are you thinking of' produce some argument or at least some mathematics to counter this play.
    Posted by BigBluster
    you open a good hand like JJ, you get 3 bet so then you suggest we 4bet putting half ur stack in the middle to then fold to a 5bet and turn our hand that is only crushed by 3 other hands into a bluff. cmon be serious
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad? : After careful study of your calculations and detailed analysis of your computations, how could I possibly disagree?  
    Posted by BigBluster
    Well, you're the guy who would fold AA to a single all in on the first hand of an MTT on Sky. For reasons that I'm sure mathematics back up.

    I can't stand back and stay silent when you offer awful MTT advice. Looks like I'm not alone either.
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited May 2014
    4-bet folding is bad 

    The maths are actually very simple. Let's assume hero 4-bets to 10k and then folds.

    When the villain 5-bet shoves the pots gonna be - 900 (Antes) + 900 (Blinds) + 1.2k (UTG Flat) + 20k (Villain all in) + 10k (Our 4-bet).

    So iwe need to call 10k to win 43k.    10/43 = 23% equity.

    We would only be correct to fold at this point if we knew the guy had AA/KK/QQ. As this is a new table against an unknown villain we can't possibly narrow his range to exclude AK etc. In summary we have to call when we 4-bet because we have the correct price vs his range.

    There are other considerations you can take into account such as ICM but were not that close to the bubble so imo there less relevant in this scenario.

    My own view on the hand is that it's a fold pre given the position we opened from. 


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  • LARSON7LARSON7
    edited May 2014
    Not been in here in a while! This post has been busy.

    Looking back at this now i would agree it should be a fold pre, and onto the next hand.

    It is a massive 3 bet.
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  • LARSON7LARSON7
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    Don't forget that he is afraid of your stack too! I can't envisage anyone in that situation shoving with AK. It just won't ever happen. Your big decision (though it might seem horrible) is pre-flop.You must 4-bet him and snap fold to a shove. This can leave you with maybe 15BBs and still a fighting chance. Against bigger or smaller stacks the strategy could be completely different, but as presented he is as afraid of you as you are of him.
    Posted by BigBluster
    It would happen an awful lot if facing a 4 bet, AK is jamming here 99% of the timem(to a 4 bet)

    As has been said 4 betting would be pretty bad (to fold)
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: Cooler or just bad?:
    Not been in here in a while! This post has been busy. Looking back at this now i would agree it should be a fold pre, and onto the next hand. It is a massive 3 bet.
    Posted by LARSON7
    you might wanna consider getting a hud larsson for when you are using other sites, pokertacker 4 is what i use and its very good, helps make decisions very easy when you are multi tabling. this spot is not allways a fold, you can quickly look at his 3bet percentage and if its high enough then id get it in here no problem.
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  • Nuggy962Nuggy962
    edited May 2014
    I agree that folding here pre is best play.  It is a big 3 bet, against an unknown best to just fold and move on.  Using maths can help justify reasoning, but when at the table it is best to go on gut instinct and as you said, you put him on QQ to AA and AK, think at that stage of tourny if I believe that's the possible range I fold and save my stack. At best 60:40 not good enough for me to put it all in with JJ so early on.

    And JJ is a lovely hand pre but is more in the 1010 group rather than premiums QQ upwards IMO,so never go mad unless late stage
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