did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?

craigcu12 · May 2014

the villian on the buton was constantly limping hands weather they were A10o or Q7o i did with a few pairs do a shove and they all resulted in him folding so i could have jammed but the concern is he will have dominated hands.

Flop
craigcu12	Small blind		75.00	75.00	5522.50
bm00886520	Big blind		150.00	225.00	2940.00
	Your hole cards	Q J
yelvy	Call		150.00	375.00	3105.00
bri106	Fold
BigBluster	Fold
CS	Call		150.00	525.00	8010.00
craigcu12	Raise		375.00	900.00	5147.50
bm00886520	Fold
yelvy	Call		300.00	1200.00	2805.00
CS	Call		300.00	1500.00	7710.00
		K 4 10
craigcu12	Bet		450.00	1950.00	4697.50
yelvy	Fold
CS	Call		450.00	2400.00	7260.00
Turn
		K
craigcu12	Bet		900.00	3300.00	3797.50
CS	Call		900.00	4200.00	6360.00
River
		2
craigcu12	Check
CS	Bet		2100.00	6300.00	4260.00
craigcu12	Fold
cheesus	Muck
cheesus	Win		4200.00		8460.00
cheesus	Return		2100.00	0.00	10560.00

Lambert180 · May 2014

Iso pre is fine.

Bet flop bigger. Probably c/f turn, if you wanna bet go a bit bigger imo

CraigSG1 · May 2014

I don't like going against ppl who are better than me but I hate the ISO raise here. It's not big enough and I think it's very rare your going to get folds and as soon as one calls then he other is surely calling so now your playing a bloated pot OOP with a tricky and marginal hand.

This hand is a perfect example of what happens a lot. Your always acting first and never sure where you are.

At the start of an MTT when everyone's stack is deeper and you want to build a nice pot to win or when it's later on where everyone gets a bit nittier I think would be fine but in mid stages your often playing full streets and can easily lose half your stack.

C/o or button then fine, here just easier to complete and take your pot odds. I think it's about giving yourself as many easy decisions as possible. Playing draws OOP is one if the trickiest things to do.

As played, betting turn isn't great as nothing has changed that will make him give up a hand he called with on the flop and may even have strengthened it.

Lambert180 · May 2014

Yeah fair point. I meant the act of iso'ing pre was fine, but yeah in terms of sizing, I'd go more like 525 ish.

Flatting isn't bad either like cos it's a good hand multiway, but I like to punish limpers, take the initiative and avoid someone else behind doing the squeezing/iso'ing and then me having to limp/fold or limp/call and have very little idea of their range.

craigcu12 · May 2014

i'm thinking now until an MTT approaches a bubble, if im sitting in the blinds or UTG+1 is it worth me raising anything that isn't AA KK QQ JJ?
even AK i'm beginning to question weather or not it's worth a raise when OOP.
the truth is i could see this player holding a pair as he has been limping in hands as strong as AJ.
if the king or A doesn't come on the flop i'm struggling to think of how i can get out not that i have put so much in the pot.

Flop
OkayPokay	Small blind		50.00	50.00	6067.50
craigcu12	Big blind		100.00	150.00	5515.00
	Your hole cards	A K
limp	Raise		200.00	350.00	3802.50
cullum	Fold
x	Call		200.00	550.00	4355.00
albania	Fold
OkayPokay	Call		150.00	700.00	5917.50
craigcu12	Raise		500.00	1200.00	5015.00
whogoes	Call		400.00	1600.00	3402.50
x	Call		400.00	2000.00	3955.00
OkayPokay	Fold
		3 8 7
craigcu12	Check
limp	Check
x	Check
Turn
		8
craigcu12	Bet		500.00	2500.00	4515.00
limp	Call		500.00	3000.00	2902.50
x	Fold
River
		7
craigcu12	Check
limp	Bet		1500.00	4500.00	1402.50
craigcu12	Fold
limp	Muck
limp	Win		3000.00		4402.50
limp	Return		1500.00	0.00	5902.5

Lambert180 · May 2014

Again your raise is too small. He didn't limp either, he made it 200 @ 50/100. Either flat and play postflop or 3bet to more like 750 imo.

As played I wouldn't even bother with the turn bet, there's a half decent chance we still have the best hand, and if we don't he's not gonna fold to that bet. If I was him I wouldn't even fold 22 to that bet cos it looks like you have exactly what you do have.

Matt237 · May 2014

Craig if you're going to ISO you have to do it bigger. You're also out of position aswell - So i would make it 550-600. As played you need to bet that flop bigger and shutdown on that horrible turn - doesn't change anything really but could sometimes have us drawing dead.

Again in the 2nd hand - Flat or Raise bigger pre to 700ish. Bet flop

craigcu12 · May 2014

this is why i'm now thinking is it even worth raising AK in the SB and BB.

i'm going to be left out of position i'm sure they will fold if the flop showed an A

i've lost too many chips in the past when i've been too aggro with it on missed flops.

paul the reason i used the world limp to hide this players name is he was frequently limping, so this was a different way of wanting to see the pot as he choose to raise rather than limp.

Matt237 · May 2014

Then flat pre in multiway pots

Lambert180 · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

this is why i'm now thinking is it even worth raising AK in the SB and BB. i'm going to be left out of position i'm sure they will fold if the flop showed an A i've lost too many chips in the past when i've been too aggro with it on missed flops. paul the reason i used the world limp to hide this players name is he was frequently limping, so this was a different way of wanting to see the pot as he choose to raise rather than limp.
Posted by craigcu12

This is just results orientated thinking from recent situations you've been in imo. I bet they don't fold the A high flop when they've called pre with A2 through to AQ which is great news for us when we have AK. And I bet they don't fold the K high flop with KQ/KJ/KT/K9 etc which is also great when we have AK.

AK is a great hand, it dominates/crushes SO many hands that people like to call with pre (all Ax and all Kx), and it's very very rarely ever in terrible shape... even against KK it's got about 30% equity IIRC. Just the same as AA though, just because it's a great hand doesn't mean it's going to win every time and doesn't mean you can't just fold sometimes.

AK is easily a winning hand to raise with long term so if you're losing with it, it's down to your postflop or preflop play with it OR more likely, you are winning with AK long term, you're just going through a period of your bluffs not working when you miss, losing flips with it, not getting action when you do hit etc but that's variance for ya.

CraigSG1 · May 2014

Playing ANY hand OOP is tricky. Just that AK sticks out in your mind as when you get dealt it (like any premium hand) you expect to win with it.

A theme developing is that you simply don't raise enough when OOP. Dont get into the mentality of automatically thinking,I have X hand here so should raise. You need to remember to factor in your opponents and your stack and theirs. Not only do you raise more when more ppl are in the pot but then factor in your position and what bet size you think stands the best chance to either get folds or get one caller.

I've said this before but you have to think of what play gives you the easiest decisions. Here raising bigger and taking it down or getting one caller is far easier than betting small and probably getting multiple callers. Even if you hit your A or K your still never sure!

77Chris91 · May 2014

As others have said raise bigger pre...

Flop - Have to c/f. I think someone suggested betting flop but that would be awful. AhKx would be sooo much better to bet flop with.

Turn - No point in betting. It's a c/c or a c/f.

River - As played c/c imo.

bet72off · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

this is why i'm now thinking is it even worth raising AK in the SB and BB. i'm going to be left out of position i'm sure they will fold if the flop showed an A i've lost too many chips in the past when i've been too aggro with it on missed flops. paul the reason i used the world limp to hide this players name is he was frequently limping, so this was a different way of wanting to see the pot as he choose to raise rather than limp.
Posted by craigcu12

You are right to question how you play AK if it's not profitable. This is very opponent dependent. And the standard way to play AK doesn't always work at the tables I play at.

I have had a problem with this. If you are playing so tight that AK is a large part of your range when you raise, then players can adapt appropriately. Either they fold all their weaker aces which they normally overplay, or play random two cards against you and outplay you post flop. If you barrel all the way then they will call with 96 when they pair their 6. They can assume you pair when an A or K comes. Or if you c-bet just once they can just float you. These are legitimate counters to your play. I think timing tells sometimes give away weakness as well.

It seems rare to me that I am betting top pair top kicker and being called down all the way. Once I have signalled my hand people just fold when behind on the flop.

The problem either way is the play is too predicatable and always raising or reraising with AK when you are playing a narrow range is not profitable against some players. Theoretically, the play needs to be balanced. But if people are calling too much, then you don't get enough fold equity to bluff. However you may need to occasionally play other cards to mix up your play.

If people always assume you have AK when you raise, then exploit that until they adapt. If someone is putting me on AK and calling me down with a very wide range, then sometimes I play QJ or some other hand but represent AK. I can get them to fold if an A or K comes, and I'm usually winning if the flop comes Q high or J high. That covers most flops.

If you are getting a lot of callers when you raise, then stick to raising and only continue when you hit. You have to stick to value if people are not respecting your bets.

If you only play AA, KK, QQ then that is exploitable too by folding against you most of the time. Whether you do this depends on your opponents, and whether they give you action anyway.

Another thing to consider is that there are 16 combinations of AK to 18 combinations of AA,KK,QQ. If people are calling you down when you continue with AK, they may be right half the time. The AK bluffs balance your legitimate bets. But maybe you do this too often. Suppose you only raise and barrel your AK half the time, then their calls are a lot less correct, and they either have to fold or are paying you off a lot more often. If they always call you down anyway then never bluffing may be correct.

Matt237 · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

As others have said raise bigger pre... Flop - Have to c/f. I think someone suggested betting flop but that would be awful. AhKx would be sooo much better to bet flop with. Turn - No point in betting. It's a c/c or a c/f. River - As played c/c imo.
Posted by 77Chris91

Of course it's better to bet the flop when you have 2 pair as opposed to AK high lol, but gone into the hand with the initiative and we can always fire again if people want to chase the FD. Tough to play oop but i dont mind firing a couple of times in this hand.

craigcu12 · May 2014

things look to have improved with AK now and here were some of my hands from thursdays BH

Flop
karlluke	Small blind		20.00	20.00	2257.50
BIPS	Big blind		40.00	60.00	1782.50
	Your hole cards	K A
bozzyboy07	Fold
	Raise		80.00	140.00	2560.00
LACE118	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		240.00	380.00	1795.00
karlluke	Fold
BIPS	Fold
	Call		160.00	540.00	2400.00
		10 7 6
	Check
craigcu12	Bet		400.00	940.00	1395.00
	Call		400.00	1340.00	2000.00
Turn
		7
	Check
craigcu12	Check
River
		K
	Check
craigcu12	Check
	Show	5 6
craigcu12	Show	K A
craigcu12	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 7s	1340.00		2735.0

Flop
bozzyboy07	Small blind		10.00	10.00	2250.00
ssbssb	Big blind		20.00	30.00	1705.00
	Your hole cards	J A
LACE118	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		60.00	90.00	1560.00
	Call		60.00	150.00	2270.00
BIPS	Call		60.00	210.00	2305.00
bozzyboy07	Fold
ssbssb	Fold
		K 2 5
craigcu12	Bet		160.00	370.00	1400.00
	Call		160.00	530.00	2110.00
BIPS	Fold
Turn
		K
craigcu12	Bet		530.00	1060.00	870.00
	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		530.00		1400.00
craigcu12	Return		530.00	0.00	1930.00

77Chris91 · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min? : Of course it's better to bet the flop when you have 2 pair as opposed to AK high lol, but gone into the hand with the initiative and we can always fire again if people want to chase the FD. Tough to play oop but i dont mind firing a couple of times in this hand.
Posted by Matt237

Were OOP in a 3 way pot. This flop strengthens the villains ranges and weakens ours. If your barrelling here with this combo of AK your gonna have waaay to many bluff's in your range.

C-betting this flop is burning money...

Matt237 · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min? : Were OOP in a 3 way pot. This flop strengthens the villains ranges and weakens ours. If your barrelling here with this combo of AK your gonna have waaay to many bluff's in your range. C-betting this flop is burning money...
Posted by 77Chris91

Yeah sorry shutdown here, was on about if you had raised bigger pre and getting 1 caller at most

Jac35 · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

i'm thinking now until an MTT approaches a bubble, if im sitting in the blinds or UTG+1 is it worth me raising anything that isn't AA KK QQ JJ? even AK i'm beginning to question weather or not it's worth a raise when OOP. the truth is i could see this player holding a pair as he has been limping in hands as strong as AJ. if the king or A doesn't come on the flop i'm struggling to think of how i can get out not that i have put so much in the pot. OkayPokay Small blind 50.00 50.00 6067.50 craigcu12 Big blind 100.00 150.00 5515.00 Your hole cards A K limp Raise 200.00 350.00 3802.50 cullum Fold x Call 200.00 550.00 4355.00 albania Fold OkayPokay Call 150.00 700.00 5917.50 craigcu12 Raise 500.00 1200.00 5015.00 whogoes Call 400.00 1600.00 3402.50 x Call 400.00 2000.00 3955.00 OkayPokay Fold Flop 3 8 7 craigcu12 Check limp Check x Check Turn 8 craigcu12 Bet 500.00 2500.00 4515.00 limp Call 500.00 3000.00 2902.50 x Fold River 7 craigcu12 Check limp Bet 1500.00 4500.00 1402.50 craigcu12 Fold limp Muck limp Win 3000.00 4402.50 limp Return 1500.00 0.00 5902.5
Posted by craigcu12

I think it's generally the opposite. In my opinion approaching the bubble is the absolute best time to be raising. People like cashing and usually tighten up at this time in a tourney

BigBluster · May 2014

In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:

Iso pre is fine. Bet flop bigger. Probably c/f turn, if you wanna bet go a bit bigger imo
Posted by Lambert180

Probably the first post ever on this forum that I have agreed with entirely. Sir, I wouldn't have phrased it differently myself.

Lambert -you must be wrong!

did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?

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