do you ladder?

THEROCK573

come 9th last night in the big $55 on stars, i was 5th of 9 when i busted, the difference between me finishing 9th for 1.2k and 1st for 23k is a massive jump so would you be looking not to get to envolved 9 handed and trying to bump up a few more places cos the pay jumps were obviously substantial. 

my exit hand was as follows : blinds are at 15k/30k, cut off raises to 60k, button flats for 60k and im in the big blind with 10 8 of spades, im getting a good price especially with antes so i make up the 30k and peel a flop, flop comes down Js Qs 2h, cut off checks, button bets 100k so the pot now has plenty in so i ship it with my flush draw and gutshot and miss the lot and bust, this is the very first hand of the final table aswell so i wasnt best pleased,

would you just ditch these type of spots and settle in to the final table and get a feel for everyone and hope to get up a few more places, obv im not just looking to ladder im looking to win but with the pay jumps being so big and substatial to my bankroll would it maybe a bit more wiser to just take a step back for a few orbits and hope to pick up some big hands?

david666

I think you answered your question yourself with your last sentence buddy. Your only increasing your chances of winning if you can  afford to adjust to the  new players. very nice result all the same

 Good lessons cost money, great lessons cost lots.

bolly580

We need waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more info.

How deep are you? 

How deep is the shortest stack?

How good are the players your playing? 

is there any really bad players on your table?

How good is your position at the table?

As you say you just joined the table but surely youve been playing with a few of these on the outer tables and have a clue, also Id be pretty shocked if you havent shark scoped them?

Another question, if you would have hit your draw would you have posted this question?

Seems all a bit results orientated to me

Lambert180

Depends on how deep I am and if there are any shorties. Think it's an ICM mistake to go busting a 25-30xBB stack if the next pay jump is like an extra $1000 dollar and someone has 10xBB.

I'd probably give it a few hands to get used to the table before peeling 8Ts full ring on a table of unknowns in the big $55 unless I'm very deep.

Vwp on the cash though.

Tsaaaar

What Bolly said

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: do you ladder?:

We need waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more info. How deep are you?  How deep is the shortest stack? How good are the players your playing?  is there any really bad players on your table? How good is your position at the table? As you say you just joined the table but surely youve been playing with a few of these on the outer tables and have a clue, also Id be pretty shocked if you havent shark scoped them? Another question, if you would have hit your draw would you have posted this question? Seems all a bit results orientated to me
Posted by bolly580

i said how deep i am, 20bbs, i have 600k at 15k/30k, there was 2 big stacks of over a million, they were on my table until we got to the final, both very good players with +200k profit on sharkscope, one big loser at the table he had around 800k he was also at my table before FT, he was the worst player but i wouldnt say he was bad, the rest were around 15 - 20bbs so quite even, the 2 big stacks were far better players than me, very agressive, i was avoiding them apart from when one of them busted me but they were on my right so it wasnt to bad id just attack the the players on my left of similar stack size who i felt of a similar level too. im not being results orientated here, i woulnt have posted if id won the hand no but im just asking whether people think i should just swerve a spot like this first hand of a FT.

CraigSG1

Yeah we need more info but I think your general question is about laddering. 

When ppl say "I never think of laddering, I always go for the win" I can garentee that the amount they are looking to win will not change there BR a huge amount. Now you stated that any pay jump is going to be great for your BR so I absoloutly think you HAVE to think about laddering BUT not in a way that can take away your ability to win. Such as folding your way up a few spots! 

This particular hand I would prob fold pre as it's first hand on FT. I think when big numbers are involved it's good practice to just stay quiet and observe your opponents. Whose trying to be the bully, whose looking to ladder, whose looking to double up etc and then we can quickly form a game plan. Who we can attack, who we stay away from and look to be cautious. 

When ever I am in this situation I will look at where I am, how many BB i have and average stack and how many shorties and how fast blinds are etc, etc and then look at payout and target a spot I would be happy with. Then try and play for that and when hit that target just look to open up a little and then just go for it. 

What is also important though is while doing this never look to pass up any good spots. So say in this instance you didn't have 108s but KK then regardless of first hand and payout I would look to play the hand and if I go out then that's what happens. 

Yes, if you had this situation 1000 times then the most profitable thing to do would be to just forget and play but who gets in this situation that many times? 

THEROCK573

1st 23k

2nd 17k

3rd 12k

4th 8.5k

5th 6.3k

6th 4.9k

7th 3.4k

8th 2.1k

9th 1.2k

this is pay out

bolly580

come 9th last night in the big $55 on stars, i was 5th of 9 when i busted, the difference between me finishing 9th for 1.2k and 1st for 23k is a massive jump so would you be looking not to get to envolved 9 handed and trying to bump up a few more places cos the pay jumps were obviously substantial. 

my exit hand was as follows : blinds are at 15k/30k, cut off raises to 60k, button flats for 60k and im in the big blind with 10 8 of spades, im getting a good price especially with antes so i make up the 30k and peel a flop, flop comes down Js Qs 2h, cut off checks, button bets 100k so the pot now has plenty in so i ship it with my flush draw and gutshot and miss the lot and bust, this is the very first hand of the final table aswell so i wasnt best pleased,

would you just ditch these type of spots and settle in to the final table and get a feel for everyone and hope to get up a few more places, obv im not just looking to ladder im looking to win but with the pay jumps being so big and substatial to my bankroll would it maybe a bit more wiser to just take a step back for a few orbits and hope to pick up some big hands?

Where here does it say I have 20bbs????

"im not being results orientated here, i woulnt have posted if id won the hand no" 

^^^^^^This is literally the definition of being results orientated.

But in honesty I think your play is fine, I think almost all players peeling pre with such a good price and a nutted hand.

its been checked around to the button who bets half pot , seems like a spot he can stab a lot, is he one of the agro guys with over a mil? 

Were doing fine against everything other than a set or a higher Flush draw

UL 

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: do you ladder?:

come 9th last night in the big $55 on stars, i was 5th of 9 when i busted, the difference between me finishing 9th for 1.2k and 1st for 23k is a massive jump so would you be looking not to get to envolved 9 handed and trying to bump up a few more places cos the pay jumps were obviously substantial.  my exit hand was as follows : blinds are at 15k/30k, cut off raises to 60k, button flats for 60k and im in the big blind with 10 8 of spades, im getting a good price especially with antes so i make up the 30k and peel a flop, flop comes down Js Qs 2h, cut off checks, button bets 100k so the pot now has plenty in so i ship it with my flush draw and gutshot and miss the lot and bust, this is the very first hand of the final table aswell so i wasnt best pleased, would you just ditch these type of spots and settle in to the final table and get a feel for everyone and hope to get up a few more places, obv im not just looking to ladder im looking to win but with the pay jumps being so big and substatial to my bankroll would it maybe a bit more wiser to just take a step back for a few orbits and hope to pick up some big hands? Where here does it say I have 20bbs???? "im not being results orientated here, i woulnt have posted if id won the hand no"  ^^^^^^This is literally the definition of being results orientated. But in honesty I think your play is fine, I think almost all players peeling pre with such a good price and a nutted hand. its been checked around to the button who bets half pot , seems like a spot he can stab a lot, is he one of the agro guys with over a mil?  Were doing fine against everything other than a set or a higher Flush draw UL 
Posted by bolly580

thought i had said my chip count. my bad!! my main question is though about laddering, i just gave an example of the spot in which i was in so people could give a better answer, im not in any way complaining about what happend, i just wondered what others do im my spot thats all. and yes the guy who busted me was one of the good player with about 1.1 mil

GaryQQQ

No, I don't ladder. The shove is fine. If it were me I'd have taken the same spot and left with my head held high.

Others replying have been influenced by the result of the hand.

If you'd hit and gone on to win the thing there'd be no debate, they'd all be congratulating you for having the balls to play for first rather than blinding out and laddering like a little girl.

bolly580

In Response to Re: do you ladder?:

In Response to Re: do you ladder? : thought i had said my chip count. my bad!! my main question is though about laddering, i just gave an example of the spot in which i was in so people could give a better answer, im not in any way complaining about what happend, i just wondered what others do im my spot thats all. and yes the guy who busted me was one of the good player with about 1.1 mil
Posted by THEROCK573

A lot matters on your own circumstances then, if these jumps are significant to your role then maybe you can ladder. But the more info I get about this hand the more its seems to be a shove, 

-Your a shorty in the pack of a load of other shorties (all low stacks got 10-20bbs so no obvious next elimination)

-Agro big stacked player stabs a flop checked to him in position, imagine he should be so wide here.

-You take down the pot or hit your draw and you got like a top 3 chip stack and can abuse shorties

Im more of a cash player so these ICM situations arent first nature to me, would be great if you could get somone like Spittles giving his opinions as im sure he'd know exactly what to do but well I cant see anything else but a jam here.

david666

I dont think asking a question is results orientated, the question  is about laddering or shooting for glory, and a basic example is given,  albeit lacking sufficient detail.

I agree the question only arose becauseof  rockys deep run, but we should always be analysing our play especially our exit hands

Lambert180

In Response to Re: do you ladder?:

No, I don't ladder. The shove is fine. If it were me I'd have taken the same spot and left with my head held high. Others replying have been influenced by the result of the hand. If you'd hit and gone on to win the thing there'd be no debate, they'd all be congratulating you for having the balls to play for first rather than blinding out and laddering like a little girl.
Posted by GaryQQQ

I don't think that's quite fair.

ICM is SO important in the late stages of an MTT, especially the FT. People who just disregard it and say they're always going for the win are probably making mistakes in some spots. Obviously this isn't the case here but if say therock and 1 other guy had 60xBB each and the other 7 players had 10xBB each, it'd be an absolute sin to get QQ in pre against the other guy with 60xBB.

Laddering is a very important skill

ShaunyT

My take on laddering is generally no, just play the game. However, a few major factors for me would be stack sizes, others aggression and pay jumps. The example you have given is a really tricky one once you get in the hand. Cant fault the peel or the shove really although you stated there were 2 agro good players with big stacks and the rest were similar stack sizes, which does beg the question, if you get more of a feel for the table and ladder a couple of places you nearly triple your 1.2k to 3.4k without probably having to do a right lot. 

My thinking in this situation would depend on "am I happy to play for x amount of hours and this is my final hand?"
If you are then great. Nice cash, great result from probably a massive field. But if your are left thinking "meh, I could've picked a better spot" then maybe you could have.

Just my humble opinion, the way I play poker these days it isn't worth much lol.

nice result though mate.

DoubleAAA

If laddering is of concern perhaps we could take a different approach to this particular situation.  At first glance the ship looks fine, although this board will more than likely have hit the CO or Btn.  We have 12 outs (flush and st8) so when btn bets 100k the pot is now just over 300k, so when you jam your remaining 570k pot becomes 870k and he has to call off 470k, I don't think we are folding anything out except air and like I said this board smacks their range.

With you thinking about laddering, what if you were to flat? you're 25% to hit your flush or straight on the turn so you need odds of 3/1 the pot is just over 300k, so calling 100k from your 570k will still leave you with 470k (15.5bbs).

Like I said, I like the jam as we're going to hit ~48% of the time and I would virtually always take this line, but I don't think we get both of them to fold as this board hits them so often so you have to factor this in if the money makes a big difference to your roll.

imallin24

id go allin 

F_Ivanovic

Confused why people are talking about flop. I mean there is no way we can fold when we get a flop like this! The only question is whether the pre-flop call is fine. 9Ts I call but I think T8s I fold. So yeah it's a v close spot and prob not a big mistake either way. If we had 30bb I'm peeling T8s all day. But 20bb is all about preserving our chip stack to get the max double up when the right oppertunity comes along. (plus about giving us more fold equity for 3b steal shoves)