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Cash game wizards required

edited May 2014 in Poker Chat
It is a long time since I've read anything on cash strategy and so there may be a quick answer to this.
Short version
Min raising the button in cash
Why?

Longer version
I've noticed more and more that players are min raising the button. Now I understand it in tourneys. The blind levels are ever increasing and we need to maintain our stack. When we say min the tight bb and he 3 bets, we can fold having lost the bare minimum.

In cash. We can reload at anytime. We have no concerns about blind levels going up. When we choose to enter a pot in cash we are generally thinking we have the best hand? We are not interested in just stealing blinds normally? I guess there's the argument that it makes our bluffs cheaper but does this apply to cash that  much?
I know poker is evolving all the time but...
I remember reading a post on another forum a while ago from a very good player and writer about bet sizing in cash. He argued that there can be times when 20x can be the right size.
I think what he meant by this was that if I'm in a pot then I want to find the most amount that someone will call with? be it 3x or 10x. 
I know live plays differently but when I used to go to DTD on a regular basis at 50/1 raises were around 5x as 'standard' and the same at 1/2. It could be argued that in an uncapped 1/2 the regs there were in reality playing it as a 2/5. One thing I never saw though was a min raise.
This is by no means critical of Lambert but I was a bit confused by a hand he posted recently in his diary. He minned the button 200bb deep against Offshoot. He was 3bet to 10 and thought that that was a bit big. Not sure why. I imagine Offshoot thought he had the best hand and wanted to set up the hand so that they could be playing for stacks with the right run out?

I've been playing so long that I remember the days that if in any format someone min raised the it was generally met with a very mature chorus of "ooohhh gayyy raise" by the rest if the table and "it must be aces". I probably way behind with how poker changes but I would be really interested in views on this.

Ta

Comments

  • edited May 2014
    In general -

    - Gives you a better price to steal
    - Allows you to raise btn with a wider range
    - Allows you to defend 3-bets with a wider range

    Min raising the btn is standard these days in online cash, especially if you have regs in the blinds. If there's a 'recreational' player in the sb/bb then 3x is more standard.

    Live cash often plays much deeper so naturally your opens should be bigger.
  • edited May 2014
    Yeah Chris has covered it.

    If you're opening the BTN vv wide like you should, then you give aggressive blinds too good an opportunity to 3bet light and you'll be losing tons cos you can't peel the 3bets as much and end up getting owned. Your success rate with stealing the blinds can be lower cos you're risking less for the same reward.

    You just generally get to play more pots IP and with deeper stack postflop which is great cos the BTN is gonna  be the postion where you win the most £££.

    RE: the Offshoot hand... When I make it £2 at 100NL, I'd expect his 3b to be to £6 ish, it just keeps his bluffs cheaper. A larger size makes me lean towards being more weighted towards value hands but again I was readless against him. We were only like 120xBB deep though IIRC

    I don't play much live but I'd imagine the good players are 5x'ing because people call too much and make lots of mistakes, we're probably gonna have a range that is heavily weighted towards value and so we just want as much value as possible. Against Offshoot though I'm not expecting him to be making many mistakes, certainly not big ones. If you minraise at 50/1 live you probably will get a call in every spot, but do that at 100NL online and that's very unlikely.
  • edited May 2014
    Personally I'm not a fan of the min-r. I think it gives the BB too good a price to see a flop with a wide range and you are never really defining much of a range. If you are opening BTN really wide then min-raising is fine for reasons mentioned but IMO very few regs on sky open the BTN wide enough to justify min-opening.
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