What to do in this situation?

peter27 · May 2014

This hand is from the £2.20 @ 2:20 deepstack.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
GaryQQQ	Small blind		75.00	75.00	3320.00
lea116311	Big blind		150.00	225.00	22565.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
acerimm	Fold
GrumpusLOL	Fold
eamonn1959	Raise		450.00	675.00	10437.50
peter27	Call		450.00	1125.00	9660.00
GaryQQQ	Fold
lea116311	Fold
Flop
		Q K J
eamonn1959	Check
peter27	Bet		843.75	1968.75	8816.25
eamonn1959	Fold
peter27	Muck
peter27	Win		1125.00		9941.25
peter27	Return		843.75	0.00	10785.00

I'm happy with my actions pre-flop, not entirely sure about how to play this post-flop though. I raised 3/4 of the pot purely because I was scared that another diamond would give the opposition the flush (wanted him to fold). Then again, doesn't a big raise like this make it obvious that I'm not interested in the flush or straight?

hhyftrftdr · May 2014

I'd mostly 3bet pre but I digress...

I wouldn't be betting this flop to try and get a fold. It's highly unlikely the villain has flopped a straight or flush, so I'd be betting for value, but also for protection of course. Numerous turn cards can kill our action.

Board texture means we should be betting pretty big. If villain holds either the A or 10d then you're gonna get value from them. Any 2 pair will also come along for at least a street.

We're playing pretty deep, in position, and our hand is super underrepped, so you could maybe, just maybe, make a claim for checking the back the flop after he doesn't c-bet. But you'd need to have the discipline further down the line should the run out be a little funky. But generally if you smash a flop like this on a wet board, just start piling the chips in.

Sometimes they just don't have a hand to call with.

By the way, if we'd 3bet pre flop to maybe 1100 and got a customer, you could look to play for stacks much easier

yoyo · May 2014

hard to argue with what hhyftrftdr said, i 3b pre most of the time & prob just bet half pot.

peter27 · May 2014

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

I'd mostly 3bet pre but I digress... I wouldn't be betting this flop to try and get a fold. It's highly unlikely the villain has flopped a straight or flush, so I'd be betting for value, but also for protection of course. Numerous turn cards can kill our action. Board texture means we should be betting pretty big. If villain holds either the A or 10d then you're gonna get value from them. Any 2 pair will also come along for at least a street. We're playing pretty deep, in position, and our hand is super underrepped, so you could maybe, just maybe, make a claim for checking the back the flop after he doesn't c-bet. But you'd need to have the discipline further down the line should the run out be a little funky. But generally if you smash a flop like this on a wet board, just start piling the chips in. Sometimes they just don't have a hand to call with. By the way, if we'd 3bet pre flop to maybe 1100 and got a customer, you could look to play for stacks much easier
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Well, the reason I did not 3bet is to control the size of the pot. If a king or an ace came on the flop, then what would I do? Would have to be out a huge amount when there is a decent chance I could be behind. Also, he could have shoved all-in and I didn't really want to be flipping.

Hmmm, it is unlikely they flopped a straight or flush, but like you said "numerous turn cards can kill our action" and that's why I felt like I needed to take down the hand just then - maybe I could have done a big raise (but not all-in) like you said. I guess I went with the safer strategy.

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

hard to argue with what hhyftrftdr said, i 3b pre most of the time & prob just bet half pot.
Posted by yoyo

That surprises me - what if the flush draw or straight draw comes on the turn? We'll more than likely lose the hand, isn't that losing potential value? That's why I feel like we need to take the hand down there and then.

I'm trying to understand what I should do if this situation comes up again, and from what I've gauged from your comments it sounds like I should be raising a flop like that with a bet somewhere between 1/2 pot and 3/4 pot? I don't quite understand why that would be effective in the long run though, surely you'd just end up losing a lot of hands?

hhyftrftdr · May 2014

Peter, you've flopped 2nd set with a very under-repped hand, you are massive here. We have to bet this flop for value, not looking for a fold. Even if a 'scare' card comes down on the turn, we have position to pot control and check back if we want. Remember, they are probably just as wary of the diamonds as we are.

Pre flop.....we have QQ on the button. Pot control is the last thing on my mind tbh. We should be 3betting our button regularly anyway, so QQ is right at the top of our range. If we get 4bet then we can act accordingly (table/player dynamics etc). If he calls our 3bet and an A or K falls, then we should still bet it generally. A lot of the time we'll just take the pot down as an A or a K falls into our range quite nicely. If we get resistance, then we can use our positional advantage to control the hand.

We should not be looking to take this hand down there and then on the flop IMO sir

MattBates · May 2014

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation? : Well, the reason I did not 3bet is to control the size of the pot. If a king or an ace came on the flop, then what would I do? Would have to be out a huge amount when there is a decent chance I could be behind. Also, he could have shoved all-in and I didn't really want to be flipping. Hmmm, it is unlikely they flopped a straight or flush, but like you said "numerous turn cards can kill our action" and that's why I felt like I needed to take down the hand just then - maybe I could have done a big raise (but not all-in) like you said. I guess I went with the safer strategy. In Response to Re: What to do in this situation? : That surprises me - what if the flush draw or straight draw comes on the turn? We'll more than likely lose the hand, isn't that losing potential value? That's why I feel like we need to take the hand down there and then. I'm trying to understand what I should do if this situation comes up again, and from what I've gauged from your comments it sounds like I should be raising a flop like that with a bet somewhere between 1/2 pot and 3/4 pot? I don't quite understand why that would be effective in the long run though, surely you'd just end up losing a lot of hands?
Posted by peter27

We will lose some hands but poker is all about the long term. We have a monster hand and want to get appropriately paid for this monster. The other thing with our hand is that it can improve so we may go behind on the turn and improve on the river.

Nuggy962 · May 2014

Agree with the majority

Bet half pot - you get called by anyone who has hit K or maybe the unlikely KJ hand, 10d 10x may come alony as well as Ad

you want these hands to come along as long term dictates you will get more value.

A bet that size will normally only get called by better or inflates pot so when another d comes or an A or 9 makes it harder to call it off at the end.

Set Q is a monster on this board - you want op to have hit something or be drawing. Half pot bet - if they have flush they are just calling to keep you in.

YOU HAVE POSITION - so one continuation bet - and this will give you the value and also you know you can see the next two cards for free - assuming the villian checks to you again (If he has a hand that is beating you he will just check expecting another bet)

That way you can pot control andbluff catch - as well as obviously turn your hand into a full house (30% chance)

Big bet = hands your crushing running away.

Question - the guy check raises - betting 800 means a typical reraise of 2400, betting 400 and just 1200 coming back at you - much easier to just flat!

Good luck!

THEROCK573 · May 2014

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

Agree with the majority Bet half pot - you get called by anyone who has hit K or maybe the unlikely KJ hand, 10d 10x may come alony as well as Ad you want these hands to come along as long term dictates you will get more value. A bet that size will normally only get called by better or inflates pot so when another d comes or an A or 9 makes it harder to call it off at the end. Set Q is a monster on this board - you want op to have hit something or be drawing. Half pot bet - if they have flush they are just calling to keep you in. YOU HAVE POSITION - so one continuation bet - and this will give you the value and also you know you can see the next two cards for free - assuming the villian checks to you again (If he has a hand that is beating you he will just check expecting another bet) That way you can pot control andbluff catch - as well as obviously turn your hand into a full house (30% chance) Big bet = hands your crushing running away. Question - the guy check raises - betting 800 means a typical reraise of 2400, betting 400 and just 1200 coming back at you - much easier to just flat! Good luck!
Posted by Nuggy962

you do talk alot of sense these days nuggy. you make good contributions to hands and explain ur thought process very well and it takes alot to impress a nobhead like me. did you have a bang on the head or something? its hard to believe its the same person who talked so much plop a few months back :-)

peter27 · May 2014

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

Peter, you've flopped 2nd set with a very under-repped hand, you are massive here. We have to bet this flop for value, not looking for a fold. Even if a 'scare' card comes down on the turn, we have position to pot control and check back if we want. Remember, they are probably just as wary of the diamonds as we are. Pre flop.....we have QQ on the button. Pot control is the last thing on my mind tbh. We should be 3betting our button regularly anyway, so QQ is right at the top of our range. If we get 4bet then we can act accordingly (table/player dynamics etc). If he calls our 3bet and an A or K falls, then we should still bet it generally. A lot of the time we'll just take the pot down as an A or a K falls into our range quite nicely. If we get resistance, then we can use our positional advantage to control the hand. We should not be looking to take this hand down there and then on the flop IMO sir
Posted by hhyftrftdr

That makes logical sense, thanks a lot Brian :-)

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation? : We will lose some hands but poker is all about the long term. We have a monster hand and want to get appropriately paid for this monster. The other thing with our hand is that it can improve so we may go behind on the turn and improve on the river.
Posted by MattBates

Okay, got it! Thanks Matt, very helpful :-)

In Response to Re: What to do in this situation?:

Agree with the majority Bet half pot - you get called by anyone who has hit K or maybe the unlikely KJ hand, 10d 10x may come alony as well as Ad you want these hands to come along as long term dictates you will get more value. A bet that size will normally only get called by better or inflates pot so when another d comes or an A or 9 makes it harder to call it off at the end. Set Q is a monster on this board - you want op to have hit something or be drawing. Half pot bet - if they have flush they are just calling to keep you in. YOU HAVE POSITION - so one continuation bet - and this will give you the value and also you know you can see the next two cards for free - assuming the villian checks to you again (If he has a hand that is beating you he will just check expecting another bet) That way you can pot control andbluff catch - as well as obviously turn your hand into a full house (30% chance) Big bet = hands your crushing running away. Question - the guy check raises - betting 800 means a typical reraise of 2400, betting 400 and just 1200 coming back at you - much easier to just flat! Good luck!
Posted by Nuggy962

Very useful post, especially the section about playing my position, cheers!

What to do in this situation?

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