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PLO cash strategy

edited November 2014 in Cash Strategy
first of all sorry if this is badly written, this is the first time ive done anything like this. I started playing plo cash about a year after learning holdem and ever since have preferred it to holdem cash, i hope you players that have never tried it give it a chance, and if you do im sure you will never look back.

PLO or 'pot limit omaha' is primarily a cash game, where each player is dealt 4 cards rather than 2 like holdem. Each player MUST use 2 cards and ONLY 2 cards from their hand to make a 5 card hand using 3 from the board, so for example or the beginners if you hold Ah-Kc-Qs-10D and the board rolls out 6H-7H-9h-Kd-2H even though you have the ace of hearts in your hand and there is 4 hearts on the board unlike in holdem you do not have a flush because you MUST use 2 cards from your hand, this may take some getting used to for players that have only ever played holdem.
The thing that makes plo great in my opinion is that because you are dealt 4 cards instead of 2 it means you can play a wider range of starting hands because it is primarily a post flop drawing game, so if your like me and you dont like folding alot this game is perfect. 
you may have heard people say about the swings of plo compared to holdem, this is because the money goes in on the flop alot more often than in holdem because it is so common for 2 hands to clash for example,
player a Ah-Ac-9H-10c player b 6d-7d-8s-9s        flop    Ad-5d-6s      as you can see player a has top set and player b has wrap and a flushdraw and i know that some holdem players wil think that this is a very extreme scenario but in fact this and very similar situations come up alot more than you think, you often find getting all your money in on the flop in a flip or 60/40 situation.
im sure a few people may have never heard the term 'wrap' before this is where your hand wraps around the flop and you have a block of cards that give you a staright so in the above example player b has any 4,7,8,9 that gives him a straight.

Starting hands for beginners, you want to be playing hands that are connected and preferably double suited so that the cards in your hand work together so hands like 
Ad-Ah-Jc-Kc
6d-7d-8c-9c
Kh-Kc-9h-10c
9c-10s-Jc-Qs
As-8s-9d-10d
one of the biggest mistakes that beginners make is drawing to weak flushes and bad ends of straights this can get you in alot of trouble somy advice until you feel comfortable about reading your opponents hand is make sure you are drawing to the nuts as often as possible. Also aces in plo are very vunerable so dont get too carried away they are far from invincible. 

i know to alot of players that have played the game what i have just written is very very basic, but i thought this would be a good place to start until people get the conversation going and can build on startegy further. 

Comments

  • edited July 2014
    Cheers Phil,
    Just to give a bit of my background.
    I'm mainly a DYM player and converted from Holdem to PLO8 DYM's about 6 months ago, so i have a basic idea of the 4 card game.

    Just wondering how a PLO cash game would differ from a PLO DYM?

    Also in your starting hands for beginners you have 6d-7d-8c-9c.
    I understand that they are connected but you could end up with either a weak flush or the wrong end of a straight?

    Cheers
    Mick
  • edited July 2014


    Great start, thank you Phil.
  • edited July 2014
    Mick 
    i included that starting hand as an example i know obviuosly they can be trouble hands i was jus trying to give examples of playable starting hands.
     i cant say ive ever played a plo dym how do they play?? quite tight pre flop? alot of limping? i should imagine a cash game is alot more aggressive on all 3 streets and hand selection pre flop should be alot wider 

    phil 
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    Mick  i included that starting hand as an example i know obviuosly they can be trouble hands i was jus trying to give examples of playable starting hands.  i cant say ive ever played a plo dym how do they play?? quite tight pre flop? alot of limping? i should imagine a cash game is alot more aggressive on all 3 streets and hand selection pre flop should be alot wider  phil 
    Posted by PhilAny2_Q
    Hi Phil

    In my experience the PLO8 DYM's play like most DYM's should.
    Most play tight early on, letting the looser players knock each other out.
    Its when its down to 4 left that the interesting plays start.
    Not much limping when there's 4 left, then its just pot pot pot !!
    Taking notes is key and with a smallish player pool its not long before you have good notes on people.
    Then its just down to Miss Variance to do her work !

    Just thought i would like to give cash a go for a little more action as DYM's can get boring unless you play 4 tables or more.
    Also would be another string to my bow.

    Are there many games running on the PLO cash tables?
    Cheers
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    Also in your starting hands for beginners you have 6d-7d-8c-9c. I understand that they are connected but you could end up with either a weak flush or the wrong end of a straight? Cheers Mick
    Posted by VespaPX
    They can definitely get you in trouble if you don't know what you are doing. The key to playing these hands well is by playing them fast. For example, the flop is 8d5dJc. We have a wrap, middle pair and a flush draw (aswell as a back door flush draw) - our hand is in great shape vs pretty much anything so we want to try and get as much money in on the flop as possible. Even if we are against a better FD, we have so many pair/straight draw outs. And if we are against a better straight draw, then our flush draw is probably good - plus we will still have some straight outs/trip outs that will likely be good. These are close to worst case scenarios too - often, you might just get it in against a similar wrap and have villain crushed with a FD to go along with yours. Or you might get it in against 2 pair where you're a big favourite and even against a set you are a favourite.

    However, if we play our hand slow and just call a bet on the flop - we often will be lost on what to do on a lot of turns - especially more so if we are OOP. If we hit a flush, we don't know really if it's any good. And if we hit a bad straight, or trips - again, we're not too sure where we are.

    Ideally with these hands as well we want the pot to not be multi-way. 3 opponents is OK but any more and we might find ourselves against dominated draws more often.
  • edited August 2014


    That 6d-7d-8c-9c hand?

    Personally, I'm very happy to take a flop with it in PLO, very happy indeed. If I end up drawing to the bad end of a straight, fine, I'll let go. In fact I would happily take a flop with that hand if the betting indicated (as it usually does) one of the opponents has the Aces. Great hand to take Aces on with, just as long as we can let go an bad flops.

    The same hand in PLO8?

    I'd be too embarrassed to play it. It is AWFUL, I mean REALLY awful. Dreadful in every way. Bin it pre, every time. NEVER play that hand in PLO8.

    Strange how 2 similar games play so different, eh?
     
  • edited August 2014
    Good aces and kings vs Bad aces and kings.

    To holdem players the concept that a pair of aces or kings could be 'bad' will probably have them in stitches or scratching their head saying how??

    I mentioned earlier that its important to have a hand where the cards help each other and this couldnt be more true when u have aces or kings in your hand. lets say you have Ac-As-9d-2h, you take the flop 4 way, now unless you flop a set of aces your hand is extremely vunerable to say the least. Im sure some of you will be questioning 'but the A2 can make a straight' and while your right just remember it can only make the worst straight possible on a 3-4-5 board, which is only going to win you a small pot or lose you a big one. 

    Good aces on the other hand that include cards that can work with the aces or kings to make straights and preferably nut flush draws can be very profitable. hands like
    Ah-Ad-10d-Jh
    Ac-Kc-Ah-Qh
    Kd-Kh-Ah-Qd
    Kh-Kd-Qh-10d
    My advice would be to not get too carried away as beginners because even though you have a very good starting hand there is nothing worse than getting half your stack in pre flop and the flop rolling out 5-6-7 and having to guess whether your hand is still good or not. 

    Im not saying you should never play bad aces or kings but there is definately nothing wrong with folding them pre flop because even if you do get lucky enough to flop top set you have no improvers and could still be outdrawn by a wide range of hands on a draw heavy board. I guess that bad aces kings and queens can be played like a small pocket pair in holdem where their value is in flopping a set in a multiway pot, a situation where most of the time you are going to see a cheap flop and either fold or potentially win a big pot.


  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    That 6d-7d-8c-9c hand? Personally, I'm very happy to take a flop with it in PLO, very happy indeed. If I end up drawing to the bad end of a straight, fine, I'll let go. In fact I would happily take a flop with that hand if the betting indicated (as it usually does) one of the opponents has the Aces. Great hand to take Aces on with, just as long as we can let go an bad flops. The same hand in PLO8? I'd be too embarrassed to play it. It is AWFUL, I mean REALLY awful. Dreadful in every way. Bin it pre, every time. NEVER play that hand in PLO8. Strange how 2 similar games play so different, eh?  
    Posted by Tikay10
    Hi Tikay, I've been thinking for a while about a few of the things you said in another thread (PLO bubble spot at Binnions). Personally 100BBs deep in a cash game facing an early position open I'm nearly always 3 betting this hand in position(not necessarily full pot) with the intention of calling a pot 4 bet (generally heavily waited toward aces) Playing this hand HU in position with an SPR of about 1.5? versus a probable face up hand is almost a dream spot for me. Just wondering how you'd play this hand in a similar situation early in a tournament.  Would maybe lead to more early bust outs, but could also increase the chances of motoring through the tourney as Billy Big? Just chewing the cud really as I'm no expert but I did think quite a lot about the things you said at the time and this kind of brought it back to me.   PS. How you leave spaces in between lines on forum posts?     Thanks, Sean.
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy : Hi Tikay, I've been thinking for a while about a few of the things you said in another thread (PLO bubble spot at Binnions). Personally 100BBs deep in a cash game facing an early position open I'm nearly always 3 betting this hand in position(not necessarily full pot) with the intention of calling a pot 4 bet (generally heavily waited toward aces) Playing this hand HU in position with an SPR of about 1.5? versus a probable face up hand is almost a dream spot for me. Just wondering how you'd play this hand in a similar situation early in a tournament.  Would maybe lead to more early bust outs, but could also increase the chances of motoring through the tourney as Billy Big? Just chewing the cud really as I'm no expert but I did think quite a lot about the things you said at the time and this kind of brought it back to me.   PS. How you leave spaces in between lines on forum posts?     Thanks, Sean.
    Posted by seanallen
    Sean!

    Great to see you in the PLO8 DYM's last night.  Was great to test my game against such a good player.

    First, the easy question - how to leave spaces.

    Just press ENTER when you want a line gap.

    Job done.
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy : Hi Tikay, I've been thinking for a while about a few of the things you said in another thread (PLO bubble spot at Binnions). Personally 100BBs deep in a cash game facing an early position open I'm nearly always 3 betting this hand in position(not necessarily full pot) with the intention of calling a pot 4 bet (generally heavily waited toward aces) Playing this hand HU in position with an SPR of about 1.5? versus a probable face up hand is almost a dream spot for me. Just wondering how you'd play this hand in a similar situation early in a tournament.  Would maybe lead to more early bust outs, but could also increase the chances of motoring through the tourney as Billy Big? Just chewing the cud really as I'm no expert but I did think quite a lot about the things you said at the time and this kind of brought it back to me.   PS. How you leave spaces in between lines on forum posts?     Thanks, Sean.
    Posted by seanallen
    First up, that Binions hand. It was on the cash bubble, & I was 2nd or 3rd chip, & went busto with the Aces. I don't regret the play really, was just one of those things. BUT......

    In previous years, I never go bust there, as I was looking to cash, not win. This year I played to win, tried to play for stacks whenever possible. (Which you allude to). As it happens, this was my worst Vegas trip ever (financially), & I lost a lot. But that was really because I played & ran bad in equal measure, & variance was catching up with me I suppose.
     
    As it happens, I've adopted the same policy in the UK this year (PLO only, not played any Live PLO8 this year apart from Vegas), trying to WIN not cash, & although the sample size is small, it has yielded excellent results, 4 MTT's played, cashed every time, including 2 x 2nds (but no wins, boo), & a profit of some £9,000.
     
    It's a shame it has taken me 15 years to eventually suss that I should play to win, not cash, but there it is, live & learn. Eventually.....  
     
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy : Hi Tikay, I've been thinking for a while about a few of the things you said in another thread (PLO bubble spot at Binnions). Personally 100BBs deep in a cash game facing an early position open I'm nearly always 3 betting this hand in position(not necessarily full pot) with the intention of calling a pot 4 bet (generally heavily waited toward aces) Playing this hand HU in position with an SPR of about 1.5? versus a probable face up hand is almost a dream spot for me. Just wondering how you'd play this hand in a similar situation early in a tournament.  Would maybe lead to more early bust outs, but could also increase the chances of motoring through the tourney as Billy Big? Just chewing the cud really as I'm no expert but I did think quite a lot about the things you said at the time and this kind of brought it back to me.   PS. How you leave spaces in between lines on forum posts?     Thanks, Sean.
    Posted by seanallen
    That's an interesting question.

    Yes, a dream spot, & we generally KNOW when we are facing aces in PLO. Think I want it Heads Up, so that I know if my flopped 2 pair (say) is good. 

    You'd struggle to get me to fold it pre though. We just have to be able to let go if the flop offers no encouragement.

    It's a question of "committment", too. We must realise, before we make this play, that it might well end in busto if it goes wrong, as if we DO hit our flop, it is going all-in for sure. Once we catch that flop, there must be no backing down.  
      
  • edited August 2014


    I'll be putting a "real-life" hand in the Tourney strategy shortly, hope a few of you guys will take a look, & comment.
  • edited August 2014
    Straying back to the PLO cash tables recently. I don't claim to be even average but i think I'm begining to get a basic grasp on the game which luckily is ually better than 1 or 2 people on th table.

    In a hand i had yesterday (I can't find it in HH i was playing a few tables for awhile)

    I am in CO 2 limps in front I have AsKQs10 and pot it. Button flats somebody else flats utg+1 who over limped previously not pots it back. I shove and it goes in.

    Do we think readless this is a reasonable holding to GII with

    1) given the action?

    2) just in general?

    Turns out i was against bad aces and i missed but was happy with the situation this time do we think it is +EV in the long run?
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    Straying back to the PLO cash tables recently. I don't claim to be even average but i think I'm begining to get a basic grasp on the game which luckily is ually better than 1 or 2 people on th table. In a hand i had yesterday (I can't find it in HH i was playing a few tables for awhile) I am in CO 2 limps in front I have AsKQs10 and pot it. Button flats somebody else flats utg+1 who over limped previously not pots it back. I shove and it goes in. Do we think readless this is a reasonable holding to GII with 1) given the action? 2) just in general? Turns out i was against bad aces and i missed but was happy with the situation this time do we think it is +EV in the long run?
    Posted by jams88
    Generally an UTG+1 that limps and then pots it back after a raise and some calls is nearly always AA especially at lower stakes and against any random AAxx hand we are in a terrible shape (30%) - even against terrible aces (AA72r) we are only looking at 35% equity at most. Therefore, shoving is a big mistake. Our options are to call and fold. Our hand looks quite strong so calling is tempting - however, with our ace is probably dominated a lot - this essentially giving us a 3 way hand of KQT with the A only useful for making straights and nut flush draws. 

    Also to note is that we have the worst relative position which could be a factor if UTG+1 is quite short and likely to shove any flop. This means we'll essentially be first to act in response to his shove. The flop might come down T83 (rainbow or two tone) We probably have enough equity against UTG+1 but we have no idea what BTN and the other player might have so we are forced to fold. 

    Basically stack sizes are going to dictate whether or not we should call or fold here pre. If UTG is deep enough that he won't just bet out any flop with AA and we are deep with other 2 players then calling has merit. We have decent overall position and a nut suit as well as the ability to flop wraps with FD/pairs with nut flush which will be a very strong hand on the flop. 

    There are some instances where your play here is fine though. For example, in a more aggressive game where you are facing an opponent who is 3-betting a lot, 4-betting with our hand here can be a great play. It's high variance because we are generally pushing small edges, but definitely +ev. We can get some fun situations too where we 4b and flop is say 552 - we put the rest of our chip stack in and opponent is going to be folding lots of hands thinking they are drawing close to dead against AA where in fact they have plenty of equity vs our hand.
  • edited August 2014
    Thanks for a thourgh explaination Ivan much apprciated.

    What do you think the optimum play would be pre?

    Overlimping because most flops we would like to see will be giving us nut straights/flushes or draws to either so we want it multiway ideally?

    Potting as i did but reasses when 3bet considering all other players and stacks involved?
  • edited August 2014
    Unless we're against post-flop whales where they will get it in with any flush or bad straights with no redraws etc then we definitely want to be raising pre. When we limp we're just not going to win a big enough pot otherwise. Yes we want to see the flop multi-way but HU is good too and raising probably won't get rid of limpers anyway, so we just build a bigger pot multi-way which is what we want. 
  • edited October 2014
    The plo action has been alot better recently with alot of new faces trying it and hopefully liking it. 
    I though i would post on here to try and get some discussion going about plo strategy and hopefully answer any questions that any of the beginners have to try and push plo action on the site even more.
  • edited October 2014
    I like to dip my toe in the PLO cash water every now and again, albeit a) I can only really play the micro levels, which frustratingly don't run that often and b) it can really hurt my head when trying to multi-table with a handful of NLHE tables...

    From having read basic articles I think my starting hand selection is reasonable, but I suppose my two queries are:

    How does/should 3-betting pre compare to NLHE?  Should I be more frequently calling in position (to an early position raise) and drastically drop the amount I 3b from the blinds?

    Post-flop how does bluffing compare to NLHE - should we be bluffing much less, are there different flop textures to NLHE that make it worth considering?  I assume that any bluffs should be way more bias towards semi-bluffs on flop and turn as we're getting way more calls than at NLHE?

    I'm very aware that I am way too fit-or-fold when I play the game... probably fine for micro levels... but never going to be enough to play at higher stakes.
  • edited October 2014

      I would like to throw in an interesting thought to this discussion. It is one that is rightfully nonexistant in NLHE but can be a great money saver in PLO.

     The ability to fold the nuts. Not on the river obviously but earlier in the hand,

     To give a real example of what i mean.

     Was playing low stakes and was dealt J9xx in the BB. 4 people limp and i take the easy decision of seeing the flop. It comes down 78T with 2 hearts, i have no flush draw. I check to control the pot and maybe then bump it up on a blank turn card. After this there is a bet a raise and then a call before getting back to me. This made an easy choice for me and i snap folded my nut hand.

     With no redraws available and hoping to hit runner runner blank blank i saw no reason to stay in the pot especially as i may only being splitting anyway.

    Knowing how and when to fold even with the nut hand is a big skill

  • edited October 2014
    drawing with the nuts to runner runner blank.

    i'll stick to sub 25bb hold em play thanks.

    my cap is doffed you 4 card boffins

    *head spin*
  • edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: PLO cash strategy:
    I like to dip my toe in the PLO cash water every now and again, albeit a) I can only really play the micro levels, which frustratingly don't run that often and b) it can really hurt my head when trying to multi-table with a handful of NLHE tables... From having read basic articles I think my starting hand selection is reasonable, but I suppose my two queries are: How does/should 3-betting pre compare to NLHE?  Should I be more frequently calling in position (to an early position raise) and drastically drop the amount I 3b from the blinds? Post-flop how does bluffing compare to NLHE - should we be bluffing much less, are there different flop textures to NLHE that make it worth considering?  I assume that any bluffs should be way more bias towards semi-bluffs on flop and turn as we're getting way more calls than at NLHE? I'm very aware that I am way too fit-or-fold when I play the game... probably fine for micro levels... but never going to be enough to play at higher stakes.
    Posted by shakinaces

    some very good questions for discussion here.
    firstly the amount you should be 3 betting in my opinion depends on the others players at the table, theres lots of things to consider 
    -how tight or loose the other players at the table are
    -how often are they going to fold to c-bets 
    -how light they are going to stack off with little equity in 3 bet pots 
    -position and how many callers you are going to get 
    -if you think you are going to get more than 1 caller does your hand flop well in multi way pots?

    Its important to balance your 3 bet range bacuse tight players that only 3bet AAxx are very easy to play against as they expose their hand alot, so making sure you 3bet different hands will keep your opponents guessing as sometimes you will win the pot with air because they think you will have aces, i know this is basic startegy but it works. say you 3bet with 910jq and the flop comes a72 there isd a good chance you will take the pot down on the flop with a cbet repping aces, and a turn barell will definatley get someone to fold Axxx that was floating the flop for 2 pair. i dont think there is a right or wrong answer tro how often you should be 3betting, i think it depends entirely on the game and players at the table and the stakes (there seems to be less 3betting at lower stakes from what ive seen).
    Also a player that only 3bets aces will automatically assume that you have aces when you 3bet so you can use this to your advantage as well. 

    Like holdem plo is alot easier to play from position, and you shouldnt be afraid of the utg raise as much because players are opening alot wider in plo than in holdem. If your new to the game then try and play as manty hands inposition as you an until you feel comfortable playing post flop and putting your opponents on hands. 

    Blufffing is a tricky point, because like you said there is alot more semi bluffing then out and out bluffing, the decision as to whether you should bluff rivers ultimately comes down to your opponent. knowing how light your opponent will call is the biggest factor. It becomes alot easier with experience of playing to put your opponents of definite hands, and when you can read the game well it makes your decision to bluff alot easier. Another thing that took me ages to stop doing was that when you bluff the river does it make sense to the other player what you are trying to rep, i would try and get my opponents to fold on the river where it just didt make any sense for me to have a hand that i would be value betting. Most river bluffs occur when you have built a pot with draws that havent made it and this is where hand reading is important because you have to decide whether they have a value hand or a worse drawing hand that didnt get there, but also how many 2 pair bottom sets are they folding when you triple barrell a board repping top or second set.
    If a hand goes to the river and im 50/50 as to whether i should bluff a missed drawing hand  i think its better to bluff and get called every now and again then a hand go check check on the river and they turn over a busted drawing hand as well but with 3rd pair, one of my pet hates. you would be suprised how many pots get won in that fashion where both players give up on the river assuming trhe other player has it. 

    I hope this helps a little bit.


  • edited November 2014

    Quick point to PHilany2q if you are trying to get new players to the site how about stop wishing they get ebola when they beat you little bit childish methinks.
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