simpifying notes for future hands & playing against unknowns.

craigcu12

i'm starting to think the biggest problem i have in MTTs is taking notes.

on cash i can get an idea of a persons play by just multi tabling plus they regs will be normally the same ones i see most weeks so it's not long before i findout who is a rec and who is a reg.

in an MTT i could play 4 at once but the chances are i'm going to be playing against 5 different people on 4 different tables and it could be months before i next see him.
So rather than going results orientated and furious with my bad calls, i need to start making myself more notes.

please could i have some advice on how to play difficult hands out of position and ways to simulify notes

here is a example of a hand from yesterdays main.
i don't have the reads on the player

Q. what would be the simplest way to put a note down on how he played this hand?


The reason i called this was because a 3bet preflop will probably tell him i've got a premium hand, so when i saw him jam the flop i thought he is doing it with say AK or AQ knowing that it will scare my AK away and he has certainly got atleast 3 outs against premium pairs smaller than AA,i see this happen alot in bounty hunters when a short stack is all in.

Q.until i get a good idea of what type of player this is and knowing that a 3bet is going to narrow my range to hands such as AK AQ and premium pairs what is the best way to play these premium hands post flop when i see a board like this.

H0tFlushed	Small blind		60.00	60.00	1540.00
craigcu12	Big blind		120.00	180.00	6605.00
	Your hole cards	K A
henners10	Fold
redeyerye	Fold
unknown	Raise		360.00	540.00	5710.00
mufcscott1	Fold
H0tFlushed	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		840.00	1380.00	5765.00
unknown	Call		600.00	1980.00	5110.00
Flop
		5 4 5
craigcu12	Bet		990.00	2970.00	4775.00
unknown	All-in		5110.00	8080.00	0.00
craigcu12	Call		4120.00	12200.00	655.00
craigcu12	Show	K A
unknown	Show	10 10
Turn
		Q
River
		7
unknown	Win	Two Pairs, 10s and 5s	12200.00		12200.00

jimb0d1

You often see the same players in mtts and can pick up notes quickly. I would either flat or 3b bigger oop.....always getting called. When he jams flop this deep its a fold surely? I would note '3x TT lp (late position). Call 3b.Reshoved 35 bb overpair'. Then I would be looking for future opens to see if this is his standard sizing pre.

grantorino

My note would prob read

T50bb c3b pre ip, jammed over cbet 554r board wTT, I call wAK
 
If Im lazy I might just write "overvalues overpairs"
As jimbo says note the open size if its not his standard

On the hand itself 3b size seems ok to me, I'd make it a bit smaller if anything. Flop is a fold imo. Ok he'll show AQ etc sometimes but they also split sometimes, and rec players love jamming these type of flops to protect their pocket pairs, which will be a decent part of their range for flatting 3b pre. Against unknowns Im b/f that flop, with reads you can sometimes b/c or check

Something you seem to do in a lot of your posts is give way too much credit for the way low stakes rec players think about ranges, they are mostly just saying oooh look I has a pretty hand, or woohoo lets gamble

craigcu12

i am beginning to think myself that i may be  giving too much credit to recs.
Q on rivers even though flush and straight draws will fold, knowing a rec will play such a wide range of hands should i still be taking the chance and do a value bet with hands like over pairs and top pair top kicker?

rec2	Small blind		50.00	50.00	7548.76
rosco2000	Big blind		100.00	150.00	2900.00
	Your hole cards	J J
rec	Call		100.00	250.00	5817.50
craigcu12	Raise		300.00	550.00	7062.50
cheekydeke	Fold
lilzane	Fold
rec	Fold
rosco2000	Fold
rec	Call		200.00	750.00	5617.50
Flop
		3 8 6
rec	Check
craigcu12	Bet		600.00	1350.00	6462.50
rec	Call		600.00	1950.00	5017.50
Turn
		2
rec	Check
craigcu12	Bet		1400.00	3350.00	5062.50
rec	Call		1400.00	4750.00	3617.50
River
		5
rec	Check
craigcu12	Check
rec	Show	J 8
craigcu12	Show	J J
craigcu12	Win	Pair of Jacks	4750.00		9812.50

lilzane	Small blind		40.00	40.00	1800.00
rec2	Big blind		80.00	120.00	9118.76
	Your hole cards	K A
rosco2000	Fold
rec2	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		160.00	280.00	5812.50
cheekydeke	Call		160.00	440.00	2337.50
lilzane	Call		120.00	560.00	1680.00
rec2	Call		80.00	640.00	9038.76
Flop
		4 A Q
lilzane	Check
rec2	Bet		80.00	720.00	8958.76
craigcu12	Raise		320.00	1040.00	5492.50
cheekydeke	Fold
lilzane	Fold
rec2	Call		240.00	1280.00	8718.76
Turn
		2
rec2	Check
craigcu12	Bet		720.00	2000.00	4772.50
rec2	Call		720.00	2720.00	7998.76
River
		J
rec2	Check
craigcu12	Check
rec2	Show	6 A
craigcu12	Show	K A
craigcu12	Win	Pair of Aces	2720.00		7492.50

salazar

I'm not sure notes are worth it in MTTs, like you have already said, you won't see them very often and MTT players play differently depending on how many BB's they have.

Take hand 1 for example, they could take a look at a flop because they had enough BBs to take a look and see if the board texture suited them. Later on in the tourney that would be a straight shove by the same person with the same hand. So is it going to be beneficial to have notes saying 'flat calls pre with 10 10 and shoves on a 5 high flop' when the same person with the same hand would probably do something very different if it was the later stages and they had less BBs?

Notes on cash players are worth it because the blinds don't change and the players (reg's anyway) will be the same on a number of tables, In MTTs I personally don't think they are worth it, others may differ but that's my humble opinion

saying that even my cash notes only consist of things like 'station' don't bluff this donkey or 6 table reg, so maybe notes aren't my strong point either

grantorino

Both those hands vbet river 

jimb0d1

You can value bet craig as long as going to fold to a reraise. Not many players are going to try and bluff you off for their tourny life after you bet 3 streets, but may sigh call with tp.

jimb0d1

"Take hand 1 for example, they could take a look at a flop because they had enough BBs to take a look and see if the board texture suited them. Later on in the tourney that would be a straight shove by the same person with the same hand. So is it going to be beneficial to have notes saying 'flat calls pre with 10 10 and shoves on a 5 high flop' when the same person with the same hand would probably do something very different if it was the later stages and they had less BBs?"

 

Thats why I include the stack they are shoving in notes. It will be useful in the next tournament when you meet them and they 3bet your own TT/JJ 

 

salazar

In Response to Re: simpifying notes for future hands & playing against unknowns.:

"Take hand 1 for example, they could take a look at a flop because they had enough BBs to take a look and see if the board texture suited them. Later on in the tourney that would be a straight shove by the same person with the same hand. So is it going to be beneficial to have notes saying  'flat calls pre with 10 10 and shoves on a 5 high flop' when the same person with the same hand would probably do something very different if it was the later stages and they had less BBs?"   Thats why I include the stack they are shoving in notes. It will be useful in the next tournament when you meet them and they 3bet your own TT/JJ   
Posted by jimb0d1

Only useful if you are in a similar spot at a similar blind level with the same player. which comes back to the point of how often are we going to see this player in a MTT and are we likely to meet them at a stage and a blind level that our previous notes are actually going to assit us in a decision? 

I have no idea how many MTTs the OP plays but I would imagine he would have to play a stupid amount every day for this to even be worth bothering with

jimb0d1

I average about 10 a day and def pick up useful notes on the player pool that play the events through the daytime when i mostly play. Perhaps at bigger stakes or on an evening it will be more hit and miss.

craigcu12

i've now had the same problem 3 times in a week, AK or AQ being 3bet preflop which then failed to hit on any of the streets and lost me my tournement life.
the thing about them was they all came in the early stages oif an MTT.

the problems are if i'm going to 3bet it would need to be gigantic, sadly that means i'm going to be so desperate for an A K or Q to come, giving me the pair because if i missed, then i will be preying for the opponents to fold because if the called well i'll probably have to give up and just try a double up with my next hand.

jdsallstar

3bet AK and AQ pre but just dont get married to them.

The 10's vs AK has to be a fold. Even if/when you fold you've got 4.7k back with blinds at 120, Much better spots will come along. 

On the other 2 hands I def val bet the jacks but like you I think i'm checking that AK on the river too. Whether checking the AK on the river is right or wrong I dont know.  

I also raise the AK bigger pre and probably the JJ I making 400 pre. 

Re notes - mtt's players are weird and hard to take notes on I find because first time you see them they are maniacs and next time they are tight as anything. 

My notes are rubbish but for what it's worth I generally take notes on any of the following; 

-Try to tag players with TA/TP/LA/LP (the LA I always colour code for good and bad LA's)

-colour code the complete fish, maniacs and solid players.

-Details on how they play their AA, KK , AK, QQ, JJ and low pairs.

-How they play their draws and what bets they'll call with them

-How they bet the nuts/really strong hands (size of bet, when they lead out etc)

-How light they call off chasing bounties

-Are they capable of bluff shoving. 

-How they react to 3/4betting and what hands will they call 3/4bets with.

-If they chat about rigged rngs etc (always think players who do this tilt easier and are easier bluffed)

-what their flop donk, turn donk or river donk means.

-Any info if ive sharkscoped them

-what did an overbet mean.

As i say though players seem to be very inconsistent in the £5-£10 mtts so im always updating them.

I'm average at best so don't know how much use that is to you.

craigcu12

i probably did over react to my loss yesterday, now things are much calmer.

just thought I'd ask for your opinions on my size preflop.
QQvs 84s is 82% to 18% AQ in comparison is 62.2% to 37.8, when i o 3bet preflop I'm meant to be seeing some of these recs fold, the last thing i want to see occur with an AQ is for the pot to get multiway because i won't be guarantee to hit an A K or Q.

Qwhat size would you recommend being raised preflop to get rid of these recs and make the pot heads up?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
goodylad21	Small blind		15.00	15.00	1565.00
mario0	Big blind		30.00	45.00	2440.00
	Your hole cards	Q A
rec1	Raise		60.00	105.00	3040.00
rec2	Call		60.00	165.00	635.00
rec3	Call		60.00	225.00	1705.00
craigcu12	Raise		210.00	435.00	2180.00
goodylad21	Fold
mario0	Fold
rec1	Call		150.00	585.00	2890.00
rec2	Call		150.00	735.00	485.00
rec3	Call		150.00	885.00	1555.00

grantorino

In Response to Re: simpifying notes for future hands & playing against unknowns.:

i probably did over react to my loss yesterday, now things are much calmer. just thought I'd ask for your opinions on my size preflop. QQvs 84s is 82% to 18% AQ in comparison is 62.2% to 37.8, when i o 3bet preflop I'm meant to be seeing some of these recs fold, the last thing i want to see occur with an AQ is for the pot to get multiway because i won't be guarantee to hit an A K or Q. Qwhat size would you recommend being raised preflop to get rid of these recs and make the pot heads up? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance goodylad21 Small blind   15.00 15.00 1565.00 mario0 Big blind   30.00 45.00 2440.00   Your hole cards Q A       rec1 Raise   60.00 105.00 3040.00 rec2 Call   60.00 165.00 635.00 rec3 Call   60.00 225.00 1705.00 craigcu12 Raise   210.00 435.00 2180.00 goodylad21 Fold         mario0 Fold         rec1 Call   150.00 585.00 2890.00 rec2  Call   150.00 735.00 485.00 rec3 Call   150.00 885.00 1555.00
Posted by craigcu12

Why do you want to thin field so much? 3bet size is fine imo, I wouldn't hate flatting though. Yeah you would be multiway but you can play fit and fold very profitably in this kind of situation imo. It's also an utg open, mightn't mean too much though. I would prefer play a lot of my poker postflop v loose passives

Personally I wouldn't worry to much if they all call, if you hit tp happy days otherwise no more money goes in the pot. You don't have to cbet everytime you 3b pre

Wtf  has 84s got to do with anything? You really need to stop worrying so much about thinning the field imo

MattBates

I don't understand the AK hand calling off v tens. In my experience our opponent has a pair and is trying to protect nearly all of the time.

I think you need to adjust your logic a bit regarding AK/AQ. AK/AQ is a very good dominating hand but its not good on every flop, we don't have a divine right to win with it. Depending on our opponents we can also flat with AK/AQ.

As an unwise man once said

"You have to read the board and also factor in the reads you have on an opponent. 

Don't always cbet. Don't always give up on the flop. 

What boards are good to cbet when we miss? What is out plan on the turn on certain cards? 

Don't have a set rule.

488 in the first hand is a dry board, it's unlikely anyone as hit it, but you got 4 callers pre flop in a 3bet pot, what type of hands do you think they have?

55/66/77/99/TT/JJ are all likely. And wont fold on this texture. So just give up. Bluffing into 4 opponents is suicide. 

Your mistake isn't 3betting pre, think about the streets in isolation. 3 betting AQ pre at micro stakes is totally standard. 

Going crackers post flop and spewing off your stack is not standard, and is the big mistake. Just give up. You don't have to win every hand. "

Put our opponent on a range based on the actions and act accordingly. This isn't so much about notes/stakes we are playing, its just about playing post flop. If you are 3betting then taking off irrespective of the flop then we give our opponent great implied odds to call a wide range of hands.

Regarding the notes thing, make notes of out of the ordinary plays. We don't have to have notes on every player if someone plays pretty ABC then no real need to notes, also notes need to be gained over time. Paying attention to in game action is just as key as notes.

I don't pretend to have great notes but with the notes you have they can either be hand specific or general reads such as "overplays rag aces". I do feel like the more you play the more you will get a feel for situations and will know when to c bet, when you shut down etc.