Interested on peoples opinions folding in fear of Quads

Sweet_FA

07/08/2014 20:25 805047855 Hold'em £10k Sky Sports BH

I can't really remember much of the action pre flop but it was summit like a raise and 3 callers little action pre flop but the rest of the hand is little relavence to this one. The Board was AQQ 6 A . Pot is 240 chips every one has around 3k chips 4 people in the pot. i have A8 for the full house there been no bets all streets and player on the button just shoves ALLIN for over 3K chips. into a pot of 240. I called the Guy had a A was a split pot

Now it took a while to call this obviously scared of the quads but i managed to rule it out from the pre flop play and when i called player made a comment on me slow rolling him, i honestly said i was worryed and 2 other players thought i was an idiot basicly so got me intrested what people's thought's were. now i'm not a tight player in the slightest. but this is a situation i have been in a few times and both time's they have had the Quads it is a rare situation. 

This my oppinion on this situation the player is never making this bet without the bigger full house it's just not happening. because if someone has the lower full house there never going to make the call. So based on that you can say 99.999% he in this spot the guy has the higher full house or quads. 

Also if you have Quads in that spot the only hand that is going to give you action really is full house as the player did against me there if you just shove i think a good % of the time your going to get looked up. So 3k to win 120 chips or lose is a pritty bad play in this sitiuation. even though i called i did rule out the Quads but i should never had made this call now i've thought about it. because that board and that bet = Quads thats happend to me twice in live poker. 

My Engliish isn't great obviously but hope that makes sense. I'd like to know what others thought i already have some oppinoins from the table i was playing on. Maybe most will think this is basic fold every time i don't know or it may help some if they ever come into this but intrested in what people think anyway 

So my oppinion 2 paired Board + a 20 x(+) pot bet = (Normaly) Quads  

From my table

"you seriously thinking of folding " 

" what an idiot"

"you can never fold scared of Quads" 

Tikay10

In Hold 'EM?

Never folding.

If they have quads, too bad. It's extremely unlikely, especially here, as played pre.

In PLO, different matter entirely, especially in 5 or 6 card.

jonjo75

You say that no one will ever do this with the lower full house. This is wrong (some people are begginers or just bad) because very occasionally they will (and probably more times than someone will turn up with quads) this is why you can never fold.

Ikelly

How about on bubble in a satellite with healthy stack against a bigger stack?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Interested on peoples opinions folding in fear of Quads:

How about on bubble in a satellite with healthy stack against a bigger stack?
Posted by Ikelly

Well thats a very specific scenario, & yes, we fold there pretty quickly, as it'd be daft to do otherwise.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Interested on peoples opinions folding in fear of Quads:

You say that no one will ever do this with the lower full house. This is wrong because very occasionally they will (and probably more times than they actually have quads) this is why you can never fold.
Posted by jonjo75

+1.

Some players can never fold ANY boat, including under-boats.

I can imagine a lot of players would call there with the bare Queen.  

Slipwater

On a double paired paired (I don't care what the pairs are), you should never be folding to potential quads.

Ever.

salazar

I have foled a house on boards such as this 

73332 and I have 67. it's not that I fear my opponent has quads but I think they have a bigger pair than 7's in their hand

Do i ever fold fearing quads? No

Sweet_FA

I think people aren't giving oppents much credit lol 

let me try and say what i would do with hands in that spot

Lower full house i don't bet there because theres' too many players and if some re raises my hands dead and the only people calling me for value would be king high with the 2 pair, or pocket kings.

higher full house i want to bet and hope somone has a queen so i dont want bet massive maybe close to a pot bet as the unlicklyness i have an A or what my table is ect.

say you have 10k chips and the pot is 40 chips. if i have Quads and like you all being saying nobody folds full house then i'm betting 10k hope he has an A so i could win 250x the pot  

Would anyone play these hands much differently to me?

BorinLoner

It's a single-raised pot, pre-flop? The only player you really should fear having quads in this scenario is the initial raiser as almost every player will 3-bet QQ rather than see a multi-way flop. Is the river shove from the original raiser?

If not, you'd have much more reason to fear quads if the board was something like A77Ax. Low to medium pairs make up a much bigger part of the callers' ranges than QQ and the river shove would be fairly automatic from someone looking to be called by a bare Ace.

On this AQQAx board, the chances of the one better hand than ours being out there are so slim that we really have to make the call. On the A77Ax board, I think we can definitely fold rather than calling for the chop of such a tiny pot. 

Sweet_FA

In Response to Re: Interested on peoples opinions folding in fear of Quads:

It's a single-raised pot, pre-flop? The only player you really should fear having quads in this scenario is the initial raiser as almost every player will 3-bet QQ rather than see a multi-way flop. Is the river shove from the original raiser? If not, you'd have much more reason to fear quads if the board was something like A77Ax. Low to medium pairs make up a much bigger part of the callers' ranges than QQ and the river shove would be fairly automatic from someone looking to be called by a bare Ace. On this AQQAx board, the chances of the one better hand than ours being out there are so slim that we really have to make the call. On the A77Ax board, I think we can definitely fold rather than calling for the chop of such a tiny pot. 
Posted by BorinLoner

Yes i agree with that

 I did rule out the Queens from the pre flop why i did call but with small chance of him having quads was also the chance he just tryed to get funky as it was really early on in the main event tournment. but with small time you have i didn't have time to think that deep more time i think if of just let him have the few chips 

 

Nuggy962

I think that maybe looking into this too hard.

If you are folding thinking they have quads - I am sure that out of 1000 hands they turn up with quads a handful (A statistition will proably tell you the exact numbers)

Yes probably splitting and pointless for the sakke fo 120 - But I would call here all the time unless as stated above - a sat and is bubble time and got massive stack bla bla bla

Lambert180

Think it comes down to the size of the pot, but if it's a HUGE overshove into a tiny pot then you have to be very very sure they are gonna have quads close to never. If they are even close to being competent then it's never gonna be the underhouse imo so you are calling to chop. I'd deffo assume readless that a random player isn't bad enough to shove worse than Ax in this spot.

To use the OP's hand as an example, we're essentially risking 3k chips to win 120 (cos we will be chopping at best imo)... that means if he has quads just 1in25 times, we're only breaking even. Not worth risking our entire stack for a break even play just relying on him having quads less than 1in25 times. If he bulffed you off a chop and you missed out on getting like 4-5xBB, good luck to him, use yuor chips in better fashion later

Here's a spot where I took advantage of people's inability to fold spots like this, have removed name to save embarrassment cos it's a forum reg. Granted it's more like BL's example because it is a mid pr to make the quads but this is a stone cold easy fold for the villian imo... I'm never shoving 8x or Ax to try and get him off Ax for such a small pot... if I was trying to get him off less than Ax (like 8x) then I could do the exact same job for like 1.5 or 2x pot. One of them spots where it doesn't matter that I'm unbalanced if I do it against the right person, but I can literally only have quads here.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
X	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£29.33
Lambert180	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£73.39
	Your hole cards	8 8
X	Raise		£0.75	£1.20	£28.58
Lambert180	Call		£0.60	£1.80	£72.79
Flop
		A 8 A
Lambert180	Check
X	Check
Turn
		8
Lambert180	Bet		£1.20	£3.00	£71.59
X	Call		£1.20	£4.20	£27.38
River
		7
Lambert180	All-in		£71.59	£75.79	£0.00
X	All-in		£27.38	£103.17	£0.00
Lambert180	Unmatched bet		£44.21	£58.96	£44.21
X	Show	A 9
Lambert180	Show	8 8
Lambert180	Win	Four 8s	£57.96		£102.17

hhyftrftdr

Nice brag Paul.

Sweet_FA

In Response to Re: Interested on peoples opinions folding in fear of Quads:

Think it comes down to the size of the pot, but if it's a HUGE overshove into a tiny pot then you have to be very very sure they are gonna have quads close to never. If they are even close to being competent then it's never gonna be the underhouse imo so you are calling to chop. I'd deffo assume readless that a random player isn't bad enough to shove worse than Ax in this spot. To use the OP's hand as an example, we're essentially risking 3k chips to win 120 (cos we will be chopping at best imo)... that means if he has quads just 1in25 times, we're only breaking even. Not worth risking our entire stack for a break even play just relying on him having quads less than 1in25 times. If he bulffed you off a chop and you missed out on getting like 4-5xBB, good luck to him, use yuor chips in better fashion later Here's a spot where I took advantage of people's inability to fold spots like this, have removed name to save embarrassment cos it's a forum reg. Granted it's more like BL's example because it is a mid pr to make the quads but this is a stone cold easy fold for the villian imo... I'm never shoving 8x or Ax to try and get him off Ax for such a small pot... if I was trying to get him off less than Ax (like 8x) then I could do the exact same job for like 1.5 or 2x pot. One of them spots where it doesn't matter that I'm unbalanced if I do it against the right person, but I can literally only have quads here. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance X Small blind   £0.15 £0.15 £29.33 Lambert180 Big blind   £0.30 £0.45 £73.39   Your hole cards 8 8       X Raise   £0.75 £1.20 £28.58 Lambert180 Call   £0.60 £1.80 £72.79 Flop     A 8 A       Lambert180 Check         X Check         Turn     8       Lambert180 Bet   £1.20 £3.00 £71.59 X Call   £1.20 £4.20 £27.38 River     7       Lambert180 All-in   £71.59 £75.79 £0.00 X All-in   £27.38 £103.17 £0.00 Lambert180 Unmatched bet   £44.21 £58.96 £44.21 X Show A 9       Lambert180 Show 8 8       Lambert180 Win Four 8s £57.96   £102.17
Posted by Lambert180

Thank you for the example there.

 it is a rare spot, i actually think it's a spot were you can explain and show them this to many people and they still wont agree based on getting quads is rare, untill they actually come across it themselfs they may never agree. I'm new to the site but when people was saying he could be betting with the Q or getting called by a Q i wasn't really having that one, but it is intresting to see many think its bad to fold there. Thinking about it i'm quite shocked you have an example of that, i'm sure in my time with poker i have seen more Royal flushes then this spot i may be off there but i bet it's close. 

F_Ivanovic

No surprise that it's the cash game player that's thinking about folding Deep stacked poker requires decision making that you'd never even consider in tournament shallow stacked poker. But Lambo and OP are right - if I was villain in this hand I wouldn't be shoving any hand other than AQ and QQ unless we had a read that one of the villains in the hand was terrible and likely to call off a shove with Qx. Because against any reasonable villain, no-one is calling a shove with anything less than Ax. So basically when we shove with Ax we're no longer value-betting but turning our hand into a bluff hoping Ax folds. And it's not a very good bluff if most people are calling Ax anyway since you're just negative free-rolling against QQ.

So yeah considering folding here is completely standard. I wouldn't rule out QQ either altogether from villains range if he just flat pre but yeah it reduces the possibility and as such the call is likely +ev - but even with it being +ev it's not by much. And so folding can never be too wrong either (unless again you have a read that someone is likely to shove worse than Ax here/bluff completely)