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premium pairs

edited August 2014 in The Poker Clinic
what has happened to premium pairs everytime I get them I lose a buyin now no matter how I play them or how the board comes out. Its getting frustrating because when I end a session I realise that if ive lost I would be away up if the premium hand didn't get crushed as if it was 22 instead of kk or qq

is anyone else having the same problem because its been a drag for me now for over a month my biggest losing hand on sky poker is QQ and that is just crazy to think of because even playing silly it should be one of the most profitable hands

aboundSmall blind £1.50£1.50£295.50DrRunGoodBig blind £3.00£4.50£268.12 Your hole cardsKK   fletch0909Raise £6.00£10.50£219.74russiaFold    sikasFold    aboundFold    DrRunGoodRaise £15.00£25.50£253.12fletch0909Call £12.00£37.50£207.74Flop  Q74   DrRunGoodBet £27.00£64.50£226.12fletch0909Call £27.00£91.50£180.74Turn  2   DrRunGoodBet £69.00£160.50£157.12fletch0909All-in £180.74£341.24£0.00DrRunGoodAll-in £157.12£498.36£0.00DrRunGoodUnmatched bet £45.38£452.98£45.38DrRunGoodShowKK   fletch0909Show77   River  A   fletch0909WinThree 7s£451.18 £451.18

Comments

  • edited August 2014
    I really do need some help and advice about this because I just got my kings cracked agin from a 5 bet pre guy called me down with a6 and hits ace its getting to a stage I don't know if I believe the odds on these specific card winning are correct in the online poker world because ive had kk 6 times today and lost a buyin every single time and not 1 of those hands was it kk v aa its very worrying and as stated before qq is my biggest losing hand it has lost more money than any hand I have played that is a shocking stat.
  • edited August 2014
    this is where notes are useful.

    what you need to have notes of is when what his hand strength is when doing a raise post flop because although overpairs look good they are only a fraction stronger than TPTK

    If you opting to call a raise weather it be on the flop or the turn you need to be sure he makes a raise with hands that are either draws or TP because they are the ones you will not be loosing too, if he doesn't raise with them hands then it's best to just fold as you are beaten and really only have 2 outs to put you back in front guarentee to put you back in front

  • edited August 2014
    We can fold to that shove on the turn surely? 
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: premium pairs:
    this is where notes are useful. what you need to have notes of is when what his hand strength is when doing a raise post flop because although overpairs look good they are only a fraction stronger than TPTK If you opting to call a raise weather it be on the flop or the turn you need to be sure he makes a raise with hands that are either draws or TP because they are the ones you will not be loosing too, if he doesn't raise with them hands then it's best to just fold as you are beaten and really only have 2 outs to put you back in front guarentee to put you back in front
    Posted by craigcu12
    great advice ill start noting that down to help make a decision but what would you do with an unread opponent with kk qq on underboards surely folding everytime isn't the answer
  • edited August 2014
    Hi
    I would look at how you play QQ for it to be biggest loosing hand. Is it because you find it hard to fold them? You play a lot higher stakes than me, but I have been playing cash long enough to know that an overpair in a cash game rarely wins a huge pot. Hands your Beating probably don't go crazy and build pot but hands crushing you happy to get aggro.

    I prefer to win the many small pots and control ones getting too big when I have great showdown potential but know not getting called by worse.

    Sure you will turn it round, we all remember the losses. fWiW, loosing KK 6 times in a row sucks bit happens! I once won 14 times in a row with 43 suited! And cracked all sorts of premium pairs.  So now just smile, type Nh and move onto next one. Love the game and it loves you back :)

    Run well
  • edited August 2014
    when your playing against an unknown  just keep you bets low and don't build up the pot too much because then he might have more concern about doing a raise really incase you fold.

    the best way to get an idea of there play is by playing your flush and straight draws aggressively on the flop and if they were to now raise you on the flop the straight flush draws and nut flush draws can be jammed as you have lots of outs still availible if he folds when you shipped it can give you signs of him holding top pair or a draw himself but if he calls you might be behind but you do have lots of outs and will see his hand.
  • edited August 2014
    I AM SO SORRY TO KEEP BRINGING THIS UP BUT IM TRYING TO LIVE WITH IT AND I AM ABOUT AT THE END OF MY WITS WITH THIS!!! now for all the hand analysis out there who can pick a hand apart I don't care what you say if you get dealt QQ or KK in NLHE 6 max chances are you will win the hand. How come for 1 month now I cant win a hand with these two hands its beginning to look like border line cheating and I hate to turn into 1 of these online skeptics but every night for a month now my sessions have been blown apart with losing with these 2 monster hands and again tonight playing great poker doing well and in space of 45 mins I get dealt these hands and lost everytime with them very unbelieveable and unrealistic can someone from sky please come on and justify this? Before anyone talks bout it can happen get real 6 max these hand in these situations every night for a mont im not playing 10 hands a night.
  • edited August 2014
    IVE TRIED ADDING THE HANDS IN QUESTION AND FOR SOME REASON I COPY AND PASTE THE HANDS AND THEY WONT APPEAR ON THIS FORUM THATS A COINCIDENCE
  • edited August 2014
    Think about your 3-betting/4-betting ranges:

    Are you 3/4-betting in these situations with anything other than premium hands? If not, you're going to be giving your opponents very easy opportunities to win big pots against you and lose small ones.


    Also take a look at your bet sizing on that flop. You've 3-bet pre-flop, got a very dry flop and popped it for around 2/3 of the pot. Then you fire the turn pretty big, too. That's unneccesary in 3-bet pots when the SPR is so much smaller. You're basically making it really tough for villains to continue in the hand unless they have something pretty big themselves (or are a bit of a station) if your image isn't very loose. Does even AQ stack off on multiple streets here? Are you going to be given credit for barrelling JJ on this Q-high flop after being called?

    Don't start questioning the RNG. You're better than the clowns that usually do that. 
  • edited August 2014
    on micro stakes and some low stake tables you might be able to win big pots but on the sort of stakes you seem to be playing there is a lot less chance of that happening.

    on a micro stakes table they call things such as XsYs Kxo Axo 76o.... and a 3bet is still less that £1 which looks cheap in there view. , a MR20p/C90p with A3o followed by a cbet of £1.30 on Qc7s2d is still in there view a good price to call for one of those 3 aces. in there mind as long as they have got outs that can put them ahead weather it be runner runner or an over card they call.

    hand selection on £1.50/£3 is probably much better, when he raised UTG the chances are he has got very good hand already his raise might be wider in the CO or on the button but we should be limiting it to things like 22+ AJo+ KQo+ K10s+ A8s+ j10s+. now you have made a 3bet in the SB so unless he were to have notes down stating you do this with weak pairs or weak ace and kings then he is already going to be folding alot of the lesser hands because whilst KQo AJo J10s all look good they going to either win small or loose big most days as the main hands they against are AA-1010 AQo+ AJs+.

    the most likely range he will be on now is pocket paiirs AQ AK A10s+ KQs+ and this is where you post flop play comes in.

    on micro stakes there might be lots of Ax and flush draws possible but the most likely hands he will call here are pocket pairs sets AQs AJs A10s and AK but that all comes down to how much of your range will be making a cbet.

    if you want hands such as JJ and 1010 to call then he will need to be confident you would cbet AK and Ajs because they are the main hands he will beat.

    if you want AK and KQ to be call you need a range like JJ 1010 to be included in them cbet.

    but if your only going to be doing this sort of bet with over pairs and AQ then he will know for sure that you are ahead and as your putting so much in he can't attempt a bluff really as most will already have gone in which leaves you facing sets and flush draws.
  • edited August 2014
    what i'm starting to learn is there is a very important question you need to keep asking yourself before you do a bet post flop.

    that question is-
    what hands does he think that i have?
  • edited August 2014
    Don't play cash but, you believe you will always win with these premium hands. This means you will be disappointed as mathematically you wont win as often as you think you will. Premiums are great but we need to assess them in relation to the board.

    Also, it looks like your sizing is pretty big so that you fold out the hands we beat and get in big pots where we aren't in great shape.
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: premium pairs:
    I AM SO SORRY TO KEEP BRINGING THIS UP BUT IM TRYING TO LIVE WITH IT AND I AM ABOUT AT THE END OF MY WITS WITH THIS!!! now for all the hand analysis out there who can pick a hand apart I don't care what you say if you get dealt QQ or KK in NLHE 6 max chances are you will win the hand. How come for 1 month now I cant win a hand with these two hands its beginning to look like border line cheating and I hate to turn into 1 of these online skeptics but every night for a month now my sessions have been blown apart with losing with these 2 monster hands and again tonight playing great poker doing well and in space of 45 mins I get dealt these hands and lost everytime with them very unbelieveable and unrealistic can someone from sky please come on and justify this? Before anyone talks bout it can happen get real 6 max these hand in these situations every night for a mont im not playing 10 hands a night.
    Posted by DrRunGood
    I feel your pain. Anyone who has EVER played poker for a while goes through these runs.

    However, nobody from Sky Poker needs to justify anything - its how poker works, & why it is such a great game.

    It's a little unreasonable, if I may say so, to suggest it is "borderline cheating". What exactly are you suggesting, & how would that work?

    It's neither unrealistic or unbelievable. A deck of cards is a remarkable thing.

    When we are having a bad run at the tables, its easy to point fingers at soft targets. Fact is, it happens, & we need to learn to live with the wonderful vagaries of variance.
     
    I do hope your luck turns for the better, & very soon.   
      
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: premium pairs:
    Don't play cash but, you believe you will always win with these premium hands. This means you will be disappointed as mathematically you wont win as often as you think you will. Premiums are great but we need to assess them in relation to the board. Also, it looks like your sizing is pretty big so that you fold out the hands we beat and get in big pots where we aren't in great shape.
    Posted by MattBates
    BOOM!
  • edited August 2014


    Repeat Matt's words, for emphasis.

    This is on of the KEY criteria in poker, right up there with position & aggression. 



    "you fold out the hands we beat"
     
    So you LOSE the customers you are beating but KEEP the hands that beat you.
     


  • edited August 2014


    I was at an SPT, & a chap moved ALL-IN with J-J very first hand (20,000 chips, slow clock). He got called & beaten by Aces.

    I asked him why he had made such a massive overbet.

    He replied "because I did not want a caller"

    So what he did was "lost" anyone who had 10-10 down, & kept anyone who had K-K up.
     
    Pretty daft, if you think about it!
  • edited August 2014
    i have a view on this after playing the social freeroll today in the first ten hands i got AKs AKo and QQ and all three lost i then played 25s and hit a flush on the river with this hand and later on hit a flush playing T2s but i don't blame the RNG I look at this as a way of assessing the way the cards are running for me and then choose my starting hands accordingly and bet smaller to see cheaper flops with less playable hands although this is taking a chance and having to fold to 3bets is a pain but at the lower levels luckily a lot of the players are extremely passive and just want to see a flop if the cards are running bad for me i usually start folding most of the premium hands because you know that they just aren't going to work

    i try to work out what mood the RNG is in and then play accordingly as it usually works on patterns like one day it'll be 70/30 in favor of premium hands and the next day could be 70/30 in favor of the lower suited cards

    Hope your luck turns around soon
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: premium pairs:
    i have a view on this after playing the social freeroll today in the first ten hands i got AKs AKo and QQ and all three lost i then played 25s and hit a flush on the river with this hand and later on hit a flush playing T2s but i don't blame the RNG I look at this as a way of assessing the way the cards are running for me and then choose my starting hands accordingly and bet smaller to see cheaper flops with less playable hands although this is taking a chance and having to fold to 3bets is a pain but at the lower levels luckily a lot of the players are extremely passive and just want to see a flop if the cards are running bad for me i usually start folding most of the premium hands because you know that they just aren't going to work i try to work out what mood the RNG is in and then play accordingly as it usually works on patterns like one day it'll be 70/30 in favor of premium hands and the next day could be 70/30 in favor of the lower suited cards Hope your luck turns around soon
    Posted by Haemophile

    Ah thats where I've being going wrong.Thanks for the tip

  • edited August 2014
    just a different way to think about things at the end of the day the RNG is only a computer program and random isnt in the computer dictionary lol
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: premium pairs:
    i have a view on this after playing the social freeroll today in the first ten hands i got AKs AKo and QQ and all three lost i then played 25s and hit a flush on the river with this hand and later on hit a flush playing T2s but i don't blame the RNG I look at this as a way of assessing the way the cards are running for me and then choose my starting hands accordingly and bet smaller to see cheaper flops with less playable hands although this is taking a chance and having to fold to 3bets is a pain but at the lower levels luckily a lot of the players are extremely passive and just want to see a flop if the cards are running bad for me i usually start folding most of the premium hands because you know that they just aren't going to work i try to work out what mood the RNG is in and then play accordingly as it usually works on patterns like one day it'll be 70/30 in favor of premium hands and the next day could be 70/30 in favor of the lower suited cards Hope your luck turns around soon
    Posted by Haemophile


    Serious or trolling?

  • edited August 2014
    If the best hand wins all the time poker would be a boring game thats why poker is so great u can be a 10/1 underdog n still hit a set   and hit 1 outter etc    im sure u have gave your fair share of bad beats to people u just dont remember them
  • edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: premium pairs:
    i have a view on this after playing the social freeroll today in the first ten hands i got AKs AKo and QQ and all three lost i then played 25s and hit a flush on the river with this hand and later on hit a flush playing T2s but i don't blame the RNG I look at this as a way of assessing the way the cards are running for me and then choose my starting hands accordingly and bet smaller to see cheaper flops with less playable hands although this is taking a chance and having to fold to 3bets is a pain but at the lower levels luckily a lot of the players are extremely passive and just want to see a flop if the cards are running bad for me i usually start folding most of the premium hands because you know that they just aren't going to work i try to work out what mood the RNG is in and then play accordingly as it usually works on patterns like one day it'll be 70/30 in favor of premium hands and the next day could be 70/30 in favor of the lower suited cards Hope your luck turns around soon
    Posted by Haemophile
    Diamond of a post. TOTP nomination imminent.

    PS; I'm playing later, any idea what the mood of the RNG is today? A heads up would be much appreciated, ta.
  • edited August 2014
    WHY NOT FOLD AA KK & QQ PRE-FLOP FOR A MONTH & SEE HOW YOU GET ON?
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