New to PLO8

Thoich

Trying my luck at PLO8 cash, but not really too sure what I am doing. Any input on how I played this hand would be appreciated.

Blinds .01/.02. 100BBs deep with oppo.

On the button with A522, suited to the ace. 2 limpers, I limp. Small blind raises to 20p, limpers call, I call. Pot is 0.82.

T64 flop giving me flush draw, gutshot, and nut low draw. SB bets 79p, everyone else folds, I call. Pot is 2.40.

Turn is 7 so I have made nut low + draws. SB shoves for 1.02. I called, SB had A235 for nut low and made straight.

I thought at the time it was a standard call but not so sure now. I guess I could have folded pre? I think I had to call flop but maybe should have folded turn?

churchy18

i would call the flop there as the a2 come into play so much and 3others in it as well.

think here is where it is more going too come down too reads you have on your opponents like is he on trips,straight draw,lo draw, is it worth the risk as he has just potted it. as i think you call here your in for the journey with the 7 on the turn giving you nut lo.

But even here i would not say that its wrong as you still have the flush draw and the nut lo think you have just been  outdrawn and unlucky.

all the best churchy

Talon

 Just had a look through this one and several things come to mind. 

 Firstly the 2 most overplayed hands in PLO8 are AAxx and A2xx. People make decisions that they have to stick to way too early in the hand with these vulnerable hands.

 The order of priority when playing a hand are Hi first then Scoop then Lo. Which means not playing hands that are only really Lo only unless they are multiway.

 Now this hand is a hand i would like to see a flop with but would still rather be coming in with a raise rather than the overlimp. In position i dont mind the call pre too much.

 The flop play is a glaring mistake and needs to be removed from your game. Calling here is just the worst possible option. You have the nut flush draw which is good and the back up of the Lo draw. But you need to make your decision at this point and not later. The bet you have to call has been for you to have committed half of your stack to get to the turn. This means you can not really fold after this. Here you have either the fold or the shove as the options. With everyone else folding making it HU then the Lo needs to be removed from the equation. Calling big bets hoping to get lucky in order to get your money back is always the worst case scenario. So it all comes down to your Nut Hi draw. Can argue the case either way for shove or fold that is dependant upon your nature but basically anything but call.

 Turn decision is fine but it was forced anyway because of your flop play. There really should have been no decision here

Tikay10

In Response to New to PLO8:

Trying my luck at PLO8 cash, but not really too sure what I am doing. Any input on how I played this hand would be appreciated. Blinds .01/.02. 100BBs deep with oppo. On the button with A522, suited to the ace. 2 limpers, I limp. Small blind raises to 20p, limpers call, I call. Pot is 0.82. T64 flop giving me flush draw, gutshot, and nut low draw. SB bets 79p, everyone else folds, I call. Pot is 2.40. Turn is 7 so I have made nut low + draws. SB shoves for 1.02. I called, SB had A235 for nut low and made straight. I thought at the time it was a standard call but not so sure now. I guess I could have folded pre? I think I had to call flop but maybe should have folded turn?
Posted by Thoich

I think the reply by Talon says everything.

The whole thing revolved around the flop, everything else played itself. Raise or fold there, never call.
 
You won't need quartering many times before you learn to avoid that horrible spot, I fancy.
 
Also.......a flop & turn of 10-6-4-7 is very "straighty", & you'd be very lucky if Matey Boy (assuming he is half-competent) did not turn up with both ends.

I don't think you CAN fold the turn, as played, once we got that far, we had to go with it.

Pre-flop, personally, with the Button & two limpers, I would probably have raised, but that's a close one. You can make a lot of money in PLO8 by forcing out pre-flop limpers. Why they limp so often is quite beyond me, but it has to be exploited.

Thoich

Thanks guys, some sound advice there

I have definately been putting too much effort into making low hands, and forgetting about the high a little bit, so can work on changing that.

I agree now that the flop should never be a call with these stack sizes, looking back I think I prefer shoving flop.

F_Ivanovic

I would shove flop too but it makes nigh on difference either way since the money is going in on the turn regardless. 

BigBluster

In Response to Re: New to PLO8:

The order of priority when playing a hand are Hi first then Scoop then Lo. 
Posted by Talon

Hate to disagree with such an accomplished player, but mathematically this is not optimal.

You must look for hands that have potential to scoop. Playing primarily high hands is typically playing for less than 55% of the pot.

Talon

In Response to Re: New to PLO8:

In Response to Re: New to PLO8 : Hate to disagree with such an accomplished player, but mathematically this is not optimal. You must look for hands that have potential to scoop. Playing primarily high hands is typically playing for less than 55% of the pot.
Posted by BigBluster

  There is a reason for my ranking system.

 Every hand will contain a Hi but not all will contain a Lo. If we are winning the Hi in every pot then we will always be winning. Scooping is good and should always be aimed for but there will not always be the option. 

  Also Hi should not be confused with High.  Hands that contain 45 or A2s are both hi drawing as well as giving scoop potential.

 That is the only reason for putting Hi first, because it is always available.

 Hands like AAKQ ds are great hands but are Hi only drawing and need to be played cautiously.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: New to PLO8:

In Response to Re: New to PLO8 :   There is a reason for my ranking system.  Every hand will contain a Hi but not all will contain a Lo. If we are winning the Hi in every pot then we will always be winning. Scooping is good and should always be aimed for but there will not always be the option.    Also Hi should not be confused with High.  Hands that contain 45 or A2s are both hi drawing as well as giving scoop potential.  That is the only reason for putting Hi first, because it is always available.  Hands like AAKQ ds are great hands but are Hi only drawing and need to be played cautiously.
Posted by Talon

Agreed.

Great hand, but far from ideal.

I have a list of every starting hand, ranked from 1 to 5,360. It ranks based upon how often, in a 10,000 hand computer simulation, each hand, if played optimally, would get at least PART of the pot back.
 
A-A-K-Q DS is ranked 339.

A-A-2-3 DS is ranked # 1.

The DS (Double Suited) makes quite a difference to the High, but barely any difference to the low, for obvious reasons, as flushes don't count towards the low.
 
So looking at those two hands again, but NS (Non-Suited).....

A-A-K-Q - 1,051

A-A-2-3 - 15

So a HUGE difference to the High Only hand, but much less to the combo hand.

So yes, we want scoop hands, & the best way to get them is to play combo (high & low) hands.
 
All imo, of course.
 
For the record, I know, or think I know, the theory pretty well, but I'm still finding it hard to turn a profit!

Incredible game.  

Talon

  PLO and PLO8 contain so much opinion and personalisation because of the fluidity of the game and being less cut and dried than NLHE.

 This brings about the phenominum of favourite hands. Though they exist in nlhe they are more luck based and rely on memory of big wins.

 In the 4 card variant the favourite hands can occur more often and are fine as long as they are accompanied by correct street play.

 For example in PLO my personal favourite is TJQKds and in PLO8 AA45ds.

 The PLO hand is very playable even against the best hand due to not really being that far behind preflop.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: New to PLO8:

  PLO and PLO8 contain so much opinion and personalisation because of the fluidity of the game and being less cut and dried than NLHE.  This brings about the phenominum of favourite hands. Though they exist in nlhe they are more luck based and rely on memory of big wins.  In the 4 card variant the favourite hands can occur more often and are fine as long as they are accompanied by correct street play.  For example in PLO my personal favourite is TJQKds and in PLO8 AA45ds.  The PLO hand is very playable even against the best hand due to not really being that far behind preflop.
Posted by Talon

That's the thing, VERY few hands are THAT much behind pre-flop, but by selecting the right starting hands, over time, we SHOULD be OK. It's maths based & logic, really. We all get outdrawn in PLO & PLO8 a LOT, but I always think "if we played that hand 10,000 times, I'd win a fortune", so the outdraws dont bother me at all.  

In PLO, that hand you like (KQJT-DS) I would never fold pre-flop even if I knew someone had the aces. I'd deffo see a flop.