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Annoying spot with flopped set at 20PL

edited January 2010 in Omaha
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
MADMOO Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £40.51
classasa Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £37.71
  Your hole cards
  • 6
  • 6
  • 7
  • 7
     
squirrel85 Fold        
spurdog Call   £0.20 £0.50 £18.82
cod Call   £0.20 £0.70 £19.00
scotty77 Call   £0.20 £0.90 £22.96
MADMOO Call   £0.10 £1.00 £40.41
classasa Check        
Flop
   
  • 6
  • 9
  • J
     
MADMOO Check        
classasa Check        
spurdog Bet   £0.75 £1.75 £18.07
cod Call   £0.75 £2.50 £18.25
scotty77 Raise   £3.19 £5.69 £19.77
MADMOO Fold        
classasa Fold        
spurdog Raise   £4.88 £10.57 £13.19
cod Call   £4.88 £15.45 £13.37
WHAT DO I DO NOW?!
         

           
           
           
           
           

           
           

Comments

  • edited January 2010

    Realistically, there are too many draws on that board to be happy with a call. i would have to fold.

    Someone will undoubtably hit it hard, if they havent already.

    You currently have 3rd nuts, but the turn is no doubt gonna hurt badly. You have seen the number of pairs you see in Omaha, so there is a strong liklihood of someone holding a higher set.

    A straight or flush draw is absolute certainty. Against one other opponent I would call based on the size of the bet against the size of the pot, but 2 players means if you are in front now, then doubtless you will be behind by the river.

  • edited January 2010
    I don't like to play hands like this for precisely this reason.
    You have a rainbow holding and a moderate straight possibility so I'd fold pre-flop.
    The problem comes when you hit a flop like that which is just about the best that you can hope for.
    There are a huge number of draws and you have no real "defence" against them. You could well already be drawing to a one-outer and even if you are ahead you can't have any confidence about staying ahead.
    Even if the board pairs you will have the "low full house" which can be very expensive in Omaha.
  • edited January 2010
      You are seriously in a world of hurt with that flop. The main reason being that holdem mentality can easily take over and you can be convinced you are winning. Set over set is very common in omaha and i would not be getting over excited with bottom set. Also with flush and straight draws out the chances of being overtaken are really high. The only thing you can really do on a flop like that is to keep pot control and try to figure out where you are or possibly improve your hand. As soon as you raised all pot control was gone and you could easily stack off chasing a 1 outer. My advice would be to fold in this situation because you will get far better opportunites coming along at a later stage so preserve your stack for now rather than gambling as an underdog.
  • edited January 2010
    Reads were spurs was unknown.  Cod is a weak tight NLHE player who hasn't got a clue in NLHE so we can assume the same here, so he never had a set here and I put him on a draw.  Could only see Spurs having a bigger set as min-raise always beat yeah?

    So I used my fold button for like the first time in a year in PLO.

    Results:
    scotty77 Fold        
    Turn
       
    • 3
         
    spurdog All-in   £13.19 £28.64 £0.00
    cod Call   £13.19 £41.83 £0.18
    spurdog Show
    • Q
    • 5
    • A
    • Q
         
    cod Show
    • A
    • 10
    • 9
    • Q
         
    River
       
    • J
         
    spurdog Win Two Pairs, Queens and Jacks £40.03   £40.03
  • edited January 2010
    Sorry about the result Scotty,

    Still long term folding still is the best option against two other players.

    At the moment players are overrating (and proudly showing) their two pair or trips and are quite happy to push all in, as proved here.

    One player I play against regularly shows his two pair and I assume he is showing his semi bluff or (wrongly) proudly shows off his monster.

    One player pushed with an over pair and little else by way of extensions, The other player at least had straight and flush possibilities.

    Unfortunately, it makes it impossible to put people on hands so either you will clean up handsomely over the next week or two, or go bust with your flushes rivered by FH's.
  • edited January 2010
      All this really does is to highlight the hardest thing at the moment which is table selection. Not only do you have to worry about ave pot and whether they are playing tight or loose but whether they even understand the game. There are at the moment way too many people playing omaha who have no idea of hand strengths,odds and when to fold a bad hand. These are a nightmare to play against because all regular bets/moves are useless against these people because they overrate every hand. I have to admit that sourdog despite winning the hand played it dreadfully because he had nothing. Cod played it passively because he flopped an OESFD and nut flush draw and personally i would have raising big with that hand. You on the other hand played it perfectly and made the right fold at the time.

        Yet again i will say it is best to watch the table first to see if there are players on the table who know the game before joining. The true nightmare at these levels are the any4 brigade because they are impossible to read or understand there play because they will raise up with an overpair or TPTK because they are stuck in holdem thinking. Your edge in this game at the moment is against people who have a knowledge of the game but not much experience.
  • edited January 2010
    In Response to Re: Annoying spot with flopped set at 20PL:
      All this really does is to highlight the hardest thing at the moment which is table selection. Not only do you have to worry about ave pot and whether they are playing tight or loose but whether they even understand the game. There are at the moment way too many people playing omaha who have no idea of hand strengths,odds and when to fold a bad hand. These are a nightmare to play against because all regular bets/moves are useless against these people because they overrate every hand. I have to admit that sourdog despite winning the hand played it dreadfully because he had nothing. Cod played it passively because he flopped an OESFD and nut flush draw and personally i would have raising big with that hand. You on the other hand played it perfectly and made the right fold at the time.     Yet again i will say it is best to watch the table first to see if there are players on the table who know the game before joining. The true nightmare at these levels are the any4 brigade because they are impossible to read or understand there play because they will raise up with an overpair or TPTK because they are stuck in holdem thinking. Your edge in this game at the moment is against people who have a knowledge of the game but not much experience.
    Posted by Talon
    Personally, I think that this all adds to the charm of the game. Trying to gauge your opponents' experience and skill levels is another level of thinking. Playing hands with a mixture of these types of players is another level of play again. It's also good to see some people's understanding grow as they play more.
    It's all part of poker's rich tapestry.
  • edited January 2010
    Not sure if Ive read this hh properly.  Did you have 1.69 to call into a 15.45 pot??.  Im not laying any set down on that street with that price. 
  • edited January 2010
    In Response to Re: Annoying spot with flopped set at 20PL:
    Not sure if Ive read this hh properly.  Did you have 1.69 to call into a 15.45 pot??.  Im not laying any set down on that street with that price. 
    Posted by OMahonyO
    On that board against 2 opponents, bottom set is not even much of a favourite to win.

    Yes, the odds were good to call and see another card but with little in the way of improvement, then the chances are that he would have been overtaken.

    Against one other, I would have called, but not 2 opponents.

    The all in on the turn would have put serious doubts on my hand, although it wasnt a scare card but in Omaha, people do like to play for their draws.

    Keep the pot small until the river is the best option. You dont need to be throwing cash around until you are quite certain that your hand will stand.

    Long term, the fold is still by far and away the best play.
  • edited January 2010

    Never in a million years could you have put QQ as winning hand heading for the river.  Even if you'd called b4 the turn (after £3 raise I'm probably calling for £1.69) you wouldve folded b4 the river.  So great call in saving 1.69, totally unlucky you were playing against 2 guys finishing off the xmas beer stash scotty.

  • edited January 2010
    In Response to Re: Annoying spot with flopped set at 20PL:
    Not sure if Ive read this hh properly.  Did you have 1.69 to call into a 15.45 pot??.  Im not laying any set down on that street with that price. 
    Posted by OMahonyO
    Looking at it again maybe you are right.  I think that probably calling and getting it in on a non spade turn might have been best???  I dunno just min raise always beat...

    and you know full well how much I hate folding ;)
  • edited January 2010
    In Response to Re: Annoying spot with flopped set at 20PL:
      You are seriously in a world of hurt with that flop. The main reason being that holdem mentality can easily take over and you can be convinced you are winning. Set over set is very common in omaha and i would not be getting over excited with bottom set. Also with flush and straight draws out the chances of being overtaken are really high. The only thing you can really do on a flop like that is to keep pot control and try to figure out where you are or possibly improve your hand. As soon as you raised all pot control was gone and you could easily stack off chasing a 1 outer. My advice would be to fold in this situation because you will get far better opportunites coming along at a later stage so preserve your stack for now rather than gambling as an underdog.
    Posted by Talon
    I agree with you talon folding was the correct option. The key point though in your post is leaving your holdem mentality behind and create an omaha one. Some players have not grasped this concept yet and you can tell very quickly at an omaha table who they are. The danger of course is being complacent with these players because they will have a top hand eventually and win chips from you. Omaha is Omaha and trips are not great, not even aces.
  • edited January 2010
    Another example on how dangerous a low set in Omaha is.

    (Plus to be honest a bit of a blatent brag)
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    p1 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £3.14
    p2Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £7.82
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • 8
    • 8
    • J
         
    p4 Call  £0.04 £0.10 £4.03
    p3Call  £0.04 £0.14 £1.56
    Hale72 Call  £0.04 £0.18 £8.02
    p1Call  £0.02 £0.20 £3.12
    p2Check     
    Flop
       
    • 8
    • 6
    • 6
         
    p1 Check     
    p2Bet  £0.04 £0.24 £7.78
    p4 Fold     
    p3Raise  £0.12 £0.36 £1.44
    Hale72 Raise  £0.60 £0.96 £7.42
    p1Fold     
    p2Call  £0.56 £1.52 £7.22
    p3All-in  £1.44 £2.96 £0.00
    Hale72 Raise  £1.92 £4.88 £5.50
    p2Call  £1.92 £6.80 £5.30
    Turn
       
    • 3
         
    p2Check     
    Hale72 All-in  £5.50 £12.30 £0.00
    p2All-in  £5.30 £17.60 £0.00
    Hale72 Unmatched bet  £0.20 £17.40 £0.20
    p2Show
    • 9
    • Q
    • A
    • 6
       
    p3Show
    • 6
    • J
    • 7
    • 5
       
    Hale72 Show
    • J
    • 8
    • 8
    • J
       
    River
       
    • 10
         
    Hale72 Win Full House, 8s and 6s £16.53  £16.73
    The Holdem mentality played an awful lot in this hand.

    Incidently, I locked up a few hands later.
  • ybyb
    edited January 2010
    In Response to Re: Annoying spot with flopped set at 20PL:
    Another example on how dangerous a low set in Omaha is. (Plus to be honest a bit of a blatent brag) Posted by Hale72
    These guys both had trips, not a set, which in omaha makes a huge difference because of FH possibilities so its a lot different to the first example imo.
  • edited January 2010
    Yes, i do understand your point, however it was just an observation on how 3 of a kind can seriously hurt. Had either of them improved to a fh, They had the low end. Still mighty dangerous.

    Plus, like I say, it was a little bit of a blatant brag. (my first ever, may I add)

    Both callers gave me the assumption both held the six so I was happy that I wasnt against quads.

    The low turn meant I wanted to put it to bed purely because I was worried about a higher holding pair making a better FH.
  • edited January 2010

    back to the op, obv fold most of the time you will have 1 out and have to fade redraws to a str8 flush lol

    u a good player so i hope u capitalised on their play after this hand was shown.

  • edited January 2010


    Forget the oppo's play Ryan. Bottom Set on that Flop is uber-scary. This is Omaha, not Hold 'Em!

    With 6-6-7-7 No Suits, the best flop you can (realistically) hope for is 4-5-x, no suits, as you have the SD & str8 blockers. And you'd still need to hit.

    You need to re-apprsise the hand Rankings. Start by completely forgetting how Hold 'Em plays. Omaha is a totally different game.

  • edited January 2010
    I would fold, too many times my lower set in Omaha has been cracked by higher sets, it just happens too often, dont know if youve posted the rest of the hand yet but i would say that someone has either a hand with two 9s in or 2 jacks, although im more holdem than omaha so all what i just said could be utter rubbish

    Theres people on the pitch....

    They think its all over...

    (quite tired whilst posting this)
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