Drip, drip, drip help needed to fix the leaks please

Phantom66

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a2e4f51cb-c64c-449f-a843-8db9c5fe7283Forum%3a1c6aca1e-3fea-4914-8d99-3f30a0f01e50Discussion%3a09c8ccf2-d526-4ccf-8247-1eac5a73f9f7

Use firefox GL

Phantom66

Hi all.

Dont play NL cash much but having a dabble again.

Typical car crash session for me.

I think Hands 1 and 2 typify my main leak - calling too many river bets. 

Hand 2 - yes I know I should have bet the turn!

While I am unlucky to have been overtaken on the river but are the calls justified?

Hand 3 the river card kills the action and puts me behind so happy to check down - but did I do anything wrong earlier?

EDIT - H/H not posting very well - I will repost them in separate threads...

REEDIT -

Thanks Mrs D - I was doing everything right just with the wrong browser - I prefer Firefox too just somehow had it my head that it was Chrome that worked best on here.

Phantom66

Here goes....Hand 1

Thanks Mrs D

Hand History #815953558 (13:34 10/09/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
BigD5	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£21.19
molina	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£3.12
	Your hole cards	J K
Phantom66	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£14.19
72dd	Fold
lisa1962	Fold
sole42	Fold
BigD5	Fold
molina	Call		£0.20	£0.65	£2.92
Flop
		J 7 J
molina	Check
Phantom66	Check
Turn
		2
molina	Check
Phantom66	Bet		£0.33	£0.98	£13.86
molina	Call		£0.33	£1.31	£2.59
River
		8
molina	All-in		£2.59	£3.90	£0.00
Phantom66	Call		£2.59	£6.49	£11.27
molina	Show	8 8
Phantom66	Show	J K
molina	Win	Full House, 8s and Jacks	£6.00		£6.00

Phantom66

Hand 2

Hand History #815951114 (13:20 10/09/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
72dd	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£27.22
lisa1962	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£31.35
	Your hole cards	A 5
sole42	Fold
BigD5	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£19.02
Brizzlerob	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£18.01
Phantom66	Call		£0.30	£1.05	£15.81
72dd	Fold
lisa1962	Fold
Flop
		J 8 5
BigD5	Bet		£0.20	£1.25	£18.82
Brizzlerob	Fold
Phantom66	Call		£0.20	£1.45	£15.61
Turn
		A
BigD5	Check
Phantom66	Check
River
		7
BigD5	Bet		£1.10	£2.55	£17.72
Phantom66	Call		£1.10	£3.65	£14.51
BigD5	Show	7 7
Phantom66	Muck	A 5
BigD5	Win	Three 7s	£3.37		£21.09

Phantom66

Hand 3...

Hand History #815947087 (12:56 10/09/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
VINEY73	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£18.95
Phantom66	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£18.79
72dd	Sit out
	Your hole cards	K K
lisa1962	Fold
sole42	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£4.23
BigD5	Raise		£0.30	£0.55	£20.26
VINEY73	Fold
Phantom66	Raise		£0.95	£1.50	£17.84
sole42	Fold
BigD5	Call		£0.75	£2.25	£19.51
Flop
		6 5 3
Phantom66	Bet		£1.13	£3.38	£16.71
BigD5	Call		£1.13	£4.51	£18.38
Turn
		6
Phantom66	Bet		£2.26	£6.77	£14.45
BigD5	Raise		£4.52	£11.29	£13.86
Phantom66	Call		£2.26	£13.55	£12.19
River
		A
Phantom66	Check
BigD5	Check
Phantom66	Show	K K
BigD5	Show	9 A
BigD5	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 6s	£12.53		£26.39

Lambert180

Hand 1 - bet flop, bet turn, bet/fold riv. Just missing out in too much value not betting a street here. As played we can deffo fold riv imo, people bet 2x pot on rivers thin or as bluffs close to never. Don't he ever has worse Jx, this will be pretty nutted almost all the time

Hand 2 - yeah bet turn, as played calling riv is fine imo. These spots aren't thin but against loose passive fish (which is our most common opponent at 10nl) we wanna vbet thinner cos they call too much and just get used to bet/folding. Folding to a raise doesn't necessarily make your bet bad

Hand 3 - bet bigger on flop but otherwise nh, wp imo

Phantom66

Thanks Lambert - Hand 1 was the real car crash. I had been mixing up whether or not I c/b flops but was a bad one not too. Really should have folded to river too. I guess the signals from the betting were they didn't have much and suddenly loved their hand on river which only leaves 88. Unnecessarily large bet if it was a bluff / thin value bet.

I see that sort of betting pattern a lot in tourneys when s/stacks feel only way to win a pot is to move all in on a blank looking river. Guess I need to adjust to a cash mentality as people don't make as many moves with the blinds not increasing.

Hand 2 having called flop believing bet wasn't strong and then improving I really don't know why I didn't bet turn. Must admit I felt their river bet could be str8 but again hadn't factored hitting the pocket pair. I was torn because I planned to rep any diamond but when it came as an A I was suddenly stronger and didn't want to lose opponent. The real mistake was I guess not trying to get value when ahead.

Always ugly looking at your own bad play but hopefully quickest way to make sure I cut the mistakes out.

alex1229

Being bit to passive buddy, your letting them take control of these hands and hitting their outs. you should be betting more

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Drip, drip, drip help needed to fix the leaks please:

Being bit to passive buddy, your letting them take control of these hands and hitting their outs. you should be betting more
Posted by alex1229

Fair point, especially on those hands.

In general in that session I was consistently aggro pre and on the flop.

I set out to be aggro full stop - The problems started when not getting action with hands like these where I hit something on flop/turn which I tried to counter by slowing down sometimes when I hit to keep the opponents in the hand.

I know its not effective though - thanks for the kick up the preverbial.

shakinaces

In Response to Re: Drip, drip, drip help needed to fix the leaks please:

Thanks Lambert - Hand 1 was the real car crash. I had been mixing up whether or not I c/b flops but was a bad one not too. Really should have folded to river too. I guess the signals from the betting were they didn't have much and suddenly loved their hand on river which only leaves 88. Unnecessarily large bet if it was a bluff / thin value bet. I see that sort of betting pattern a lot in tourneys when s/stacks feel only way to win a pot is to move all in on a blank looking river. Guess I need to adjust to a cash mentality as people don't make as many moves with the blinds not increasing.Posted by Phantom66

I think that tactic is still used at NL10 and is something that is worth noting when you see players doing it. For example, there are certain players where I wouldn't be surprised to see a worse Jx hand or some odd holding that had one heart and bombs the missed flush draw.

Against an unknown though, sigh fold is best default. Let other players make the curiosity calls and give you the info you need for notes!

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Drip, drip, drip help needed to fix the leaks please:

In Response to Re: Drip, drip, drip help needed to fix the leaks please : I think that tactic is still used at NL10 and is something that is worth noting when you see players doing it. For example, there are certain players where I wouldn't be surprised to see a worse Jx hand or some odd holding that had one heart and bombs the missed flush draw. Against an unknown though, sigh fold is best default. Let other players make the curiosity calls and give you the info you need for notes!
Posted by shakinaces

Thanks shakin.

I guess with notes they do that makes it easier to call

without notes it is more a case of how often is it seen at cash v tourneys and I reckon folds will save me money in the long run.

Phantom66

Played a two table session last night with a more committed aggro approach post flop.

Seemed to work but obviously very early days.

I have checked my stats and in the session (about 75 mins) I had 18 hands where I won or lost more that £1.

Won 12 of those and lost 6

Overall profit

Would have been a lot better but for this hand (which looks a lot similar to the ones above!).

Rivered again- I lost more because I had been more aggro on flop/turn and built pot while ahead. I called the river bet thinking I was probably behind but the pot odds were so good and the opponent could have been repping the K especially as learning from before I had made some (hopefully) disciplined folds on the river earlier on the table.

Therefore not as concerned about this hand as I was from others, unless you think different?

Hand History #816439952 (21:46 11/09/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
GTX	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£11.49
Phantom66	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£27.93
	Your hole cards	10 10
ChurchC	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£11.43
spankaa	Fold
Ice_Tiger	Fold
fulham845	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£10.18
GTX	Fold
Phantom66	Raise		£1.15	£1.90	£26.78
ChurchC	Call		£0.95	£2.85	£10.48
fulham845	Fold
Flop
		8 10 A
Phantom66	Bet		£1.43	£4.28	£25.35
ChurchC	Call		£1.43	£5.71	£9.05
Turn
		J
Phantom66	Bet		£4.28	£9.99	£21.07
ChurchC	Call		£4.28	£14.27	£4.77
River
		Q
Phantom66	Check
ChurchC	All-in		£4.77	£19.04	£0.00
Phantom66	Call		£4.77	£23.81	£16.30
Phantom66	Show	10 10
ChurchC	Show	Q Q
ChurchC	Win	Three Queens	£22.41		£22.41

Phantom66

From the same session, nice pot but should I have got more from it?

Hand History #816418640 (21:11 11/09/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Phantom66	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£15.93
ChurchC	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£14.49
	Your hole cards	Q Q
spankaa	Fold
Ice_Tiger	Fold
fulham845	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£23.22
GTX	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£9.65
Phantom66	Raise		£0.45	£0.80	£15.48
ChurchC	Fold
fulham845	Fold
GTX	Call		£0.40	£1.20	£9.25
Flop
		A Q J
Phantom66	Bet		£0.60	£1.80	£14.88
GTX	Call		£0.60	£2.40	£8.65
Turn
		J
Phantom66	Bet		£1.20	£3.60	£13.68
GTX	Call		£1.20	£4.80	£7.45
River
		2
Phantom66	Bet		£3.60	£8.40	£10.08
GTX	Call		£3.60	£12.00	£3.85
Phantom66	Show	Q Q
GTX	Muck	6 A
Phantom66	Win	Full House, Queens and Jacks	£11.10		£21.18

shakinaces

Hmm... I'm a nit so I probably fold hand 1 on the river unless I know the villain really well.  Seems unlikely they'd often be all in on the river without a K or maybe a 9... would be quite surprised when they turned over a set!

Personally I think you can bet a bit more on flop and turn during hand 2. Oppo either has undercards and folds even a 1/2 pot bet the majority of the time, or has 1 or more broadway cards and will likely call 3/4 or maybe even full pot bet (personally I bet 2/3 - 3/4, but even that is probably too little at these levels).  Therefore you may as well bet bigger and aim to get max value the times he does have a hand.

Arguably the bigger sizing can also work better as a bluff as well, when you don't flop as big, so can keep a consistent 2/3 or bigger bet whenever this sort of flop comes down (and avoid being exploitable). This reduces the chance a small pair may get sticky and may even get more folds from weak Jx/Qx hands, as well as Kx and Tx hands that have reasonable equity.

Just my opinion though...

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Drip, drip, drip help needed to fix the leaks please:

Hmm... I'm a nit so I probably fold hand 1 on the river unless I know the villain really well.  Seems unlikely they'd often be all in on the river without a K or maybe a 9... would be quite surprised when they turned over a set! Personally I think you can bet a bit more on flop and turn during hand 2. Oppo either has undercards and folds even a 1/2 pot bet the majority of the time, or has 1 or more broadway cards and will likely call 3/4 or maybe even full pot bet (personally I bet 2/3 - 3/4, but even that is probably too little at these levels).  Therefore you may as well bet bigger and aim to get max value the times he does have a hand. Arguably the bigger sizing can also work better as a bluff as well, when you don't flop as big, so can keep a consistent 2/3 or bigger bet whenever this sort of flop comes down (and avoid being exploitable). This reduces the chance a small pair may get sticky and may even get more folds from weak Jx/Qx hands, as well as Kx and Tx hands that have reasonable equity. Just my opinion though...
Posted by shakinaces

Yes pretty much what I thought too - ugly call said as much in chat (after my polite nh and an admission of luck from the winner). Guess part of brain was kicking back against some pretty nitty folds earlier and picked the wrong time to find out.

Generally I was betting 2/3 to 3/4 as I was concisously trying to be more aggro, I do click 1/2 sometimes though which is generally a leak I guess. Sometimes if I think 3/4 is too strong I am just too lazy to both do the maths and type in a number around 2/3 size and click on 1/2 instead.

In 2nd hand especially there were plenty of hands that would have paid me off though which is why I posted it as an example of poor play.

Not much point in me posting hands which show my fantastic skills as I dont want to scare people away from playing me ;-)