Should I bet river?

mrdavies

fi33er	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£13.56
BobTheBee	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£33.21
	Your hole cards	Q A
GothGod	Fold
Gazza1972	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£19.10
mrdavies	Raise		£0.80	£1.30	£31.61
NL_King	Call		£0.80	£2.10	£16.34
fi33er	Fold
BobTheBee	Call		£0.60	£2.70	£32.61
Gazza1972	Call		£0.60	£3.30	£18.50
Flop
		8 J 7
BobTheBee	Check
Gazza1972	Bet		£0.20	£3.50	£18.30
mrdavies	Call		£0.20	£3.70	£31.41
NL_King	Call		£0.20	£3.90	£16.14
BobTheBee	Call		£0.20	£4.10	£32.41
Turn
		A
BobTheBee	Check
Gazza1972	Bet		£0.20	£4.30	£18.10
mrdavies	Raise		£2.45	£6.75	£28.96
NL_King	Call		£2.45	£9.20	£13.69
BobTheBee	Fold
Gazza1972	Call		£2.25	£11.45	£15.85
River
		8

shakinaces

I assume that it gets checked to you on the river?

I think I probably take the decision to bet/fold here... lots of worse aces and maybe even some jacks may call here so worth going for value... probably 1/2 pot or just over and try to price in both to call...

Lambert180

It's tricky. I guess all Ax call now that the board has paired because now all Ax have the jack as their kicker.

I think we can value bet (and fold to a raise) but we have to go small imo, like I wouldn't go anything over £5

mrdavies

Yep, agree with both posts! Just didnt want a shabby 8 re raising me or a slow played flopped str8!

Chickened out and checked it down im afraid!

jimb0d1

Chk for me.

IDONKCALLU

bet for value if u get raised u know ya beat  love these spots for thin value if u dnt bet here i feel ya losing value

-ACERAG-

In Response to Re: Should I bet river?:

bet for value if u get raised u know ya beat  love these spots for thin value if u dnt bet here i feel ya losing value
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Agree, he called you with ace 10 and many other weaker aces, thinking the jack plays and its a split pot. Very thin value, but surely thats a spot to get value.

Loving the 20p bet on the flop, hes showing extreme weakness. 

Another question should be should you raise the flop been the pre flop aggressor and been faced with a very weak 20 p bet on the flop ?

shakinaces

In Response to Re: Should I bet river?:

In Response to Re: Should I bet river? : Agree, he called you with ace 10 and many other weaker aces, thinking the jack plays and its a split pot. Very thin value, but surely thats a spot to get value. Loving the 20p bet on the flop, hes showing extreme weakness.  Another question should be should you raise the flop been the pre flop aggressor and been faced with a very weak 20 p bet on the flop ?
Posted by -ACERAG-

I often feel this way when you see these min bets post-flop... yet it is so frequently 'something' that they are betting for protection (ie bottom pair) that you often don't fold them out by raising, so I think it's a leak to raise when we don't have a made hand, particularly on a fairly wet flop like this.

Furthermore, we've still got 2 more players to act - who between have a range which is highly likely to have a piece of this flop and likely to come along for the ride... therefore I'm not sure us raising gets value from worse, folds (much) better or really protects our own hand (A high).

At times it feels like a leak that I call these bets at all... but I can never fold to them. Probably just sticks in the mind the amount of times that I face something like A8 here (ignoring river card), that min bet flop 2nd pair and left me unknowingly drawing to 3 live outs / donking off chips when I do hit my ace.

-ACERAG-

In Response to Re: Should I bet river?:

In Response to Re: Should I bet river? : I often feel this way when you see these min bets post-flop... yet it is so frequently 'something' that they are betting for protection (ie bottom pair) that you often don't fold them out by raising, so I think it's a leak to raise when we don't have a made hand, particularly on a fairly wet flop like this. Furthermore, we've still got 2 more players to act - who between have a range which is highly likely to have a piece of this flop and likely to come along for the ride... therefore I'm not sure us raising gets value from worse, folds (much) better or really protects our own hand (A high). At times it feels like a leak that I call these bets at all... but I can never fold to them. Probably just sticks in the mind the amount of times that I face something like A8 here (ignoring river card), that min bet flop 2nd pair and left me unknowingly drawing to 3 live outs / donking off chips when I do hit my ace.
Posted by shakinaces

Good point about calling these min bets being possibly a leak, but with 2 overs to the flop and faced with amazing pot odds surely you can not fold. I suppose if any of the 2 players left to act raises then you fold. I also agree these min bets normally stink of bottom pair, small pocket pair or a big draw and they want to get a cheap card.

CraigSG1

Easy bet fold. It's rare anyone ever check raises river as a bluff at these levels. 

F_Ivanovic

Most of the time I treat min-bets like a check. Would I bet here 4 way with AQ on this board? Nope. So I'm certainly not going to raise a "check" (min-bet) Despite treating min bets like checks I will sometimes fold to them. In a HU pot I'm never folding a min-bet when getting such great odds but in a 4 way pot the problem lies with the 2 players yet to act. It's a board that could well have hit one of them and with them both facing a min bet and call it's likely one of them will raise (bet) if they have something. So in this case our 20p call is a complete waste of money! Remember, every BB counts. When you think a lot of winning players have win-rates of only 1-2BB per 100 hands at most then throwing away one big blind is going to add up.

So generally my decision to call in this spot will depend on how passive the other players are. If I think I'm going to see a turn enough of the time (maybe at least 30%) by calling the min-bet then I think it's OK. Still, our hand is unlikely to improve much. Would be great to hit a back door flush but at best we're going to hit an A where we can still be behind already to straights/2 pair or sets. Or where someone has a pair and has either a Q or A killing our outs because it gives them 2 pair.

Thus, to make the call profitable we absolutely have to be going for thin value and getting the most out of it when we do hit one of the best cards for us. And so I think betting river is mandatory - would agree with Lambert's sizing.