QQ DYM

Matt237

5 handed the chances of us having the best hand are high. has steve been aggresive? limping alot? min raisng?

Matt237

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Matt237	Small blind		50.00	50.00	5085.00
Steve	Big blind		100.00	150.00	3390.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
John	Raise		200.00	350.00	980.00
Mr_Shh	Fold				(1800)
Mark	Call		200.00	550.00	755.00
Matt237

5 handed DYM. Player Steve in the big blind does not know ICM. With stacks as they are and knowing ranges of John/Mark are not too narrow, what would you do?

A) Fold
Raise + Call off both John and Mark if they push, or either. And fold if BB jams
C) Shove and risk Steve waking up with a big hand and potentially committing suicide in spot
D) Call along

Think its quite a straightforward decision for me but it's an interesting debate.

Matt237

In Response to Re: QQ DYM:

5 handed the chances of us having the best hand are high. has steve been aggresive? limping alot? min raisng?
Posted by MrCoxy

Relatively passivefish

stuarty117

Would never shove

I would prob perhaps just call we have 5k time to play a little tigther we are nearly gtd to cash. 

Depending how i am feeling i would also maybe reraise. Steve is the concern here u just dont want to go to war with him but he might be thinking the exact same thing so if u reraise steve may fold anyway. 

I hope this makes sense lol

MrCoxy

In Response to Re: QQ DYM:

In Response to Re: QQ DYM : Relatively passivefish
Posted by Matt237

If he is likely to fold if you raise then i would min raise to induce either of the other two to shove. if steve is likely to call wether you raise or not i would prob call and see a flop. My second thought is we are playing a DYM which is essentially about survival. you have plenty of chips, so if your probably going to be going multi way to a flop here even if you raise a fold is also an option.

hhyftrftdr

Raise call off.

Easy game.

stuarty117

In Response to Re: QQ DYM:

Raise call off. Easy game.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Not necessarily. My reasons are

If we re raise and the fella with 3k shoves we may have to fold just because we have so many chips.

He would more likely have kk aa ak. Even with ak we are just flipping and no need to take that chance in dyms.

Yes i agree reraise. But we dont wanna go to war with the 2nd place guy.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: QQ DYM:

In Response to Re: QQ DYM : Not necessarily. My reasons are If we re raise and the fella with 3k shoves we may have to fold just because we have so many chips. He would more likely have kk aa ak. Even with ak we are just flipping and no need to take that chance in dyms. Yes i agree reraise. But we dont wanna go to war with the 2nd place guy.
Posted by stuarty117

That's what I mean. If we get cold raised by the BB then its an easy pass, assuming he's a competent DYM player, as he should only get involved with AA/KK, and should know we aren't splashing about with a marginal hand.

Raise to take on the 2 shorties and call off vs them. Probs should have made that clearer above

DoubleAAA

Slight error there Matt, I think Mr_shh will have 1240 chips not 1800 as the total amount of chips should add up to 12000. 

Now we have 50bigs @50/100 and with 3 shorties we're locked on to be ITM 93% of the time.  This may sound really nitty but why should we get involved when we're already 93% locked on to cash. You can run the stacks through this icm calculator http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php

If we jam (based on bb only calling with the top 1.4% hands QQ+), as the icmizer link below shows we only make 0.88% long term
http://www.icmpoker.com/icmizer/#Cevg

Our equity does not change even if the bb calls with 99+, AQ+ as shown below:
http://www.icmpoker.com/icmizer/#FkIL


What if we raise?

In the scenario that we raise to 600 and the bb folds and let's say we get it in vs the two other players, we're only going to win 60% of the time and the other 40% we will have lost around 1k.

If we were to raise to 600 and then the bb jams (he can exploit us if he understands icm as we cannot call unless we have AA) we're in an awkward situation as we cannot call as you have stated.  Now let's say the bb flats our 600 and then utg jams and the btn calls or folds, what do we do? we still have the bb to act behind us right? So if we flat that's bad (what do we do on say a T43r board and we check and bb bets 1k?), if we isolate then we run the big risk that bb calls and of course if we fold we've just given away 600 chips unecessarily.

I also ran this through sngwizz and according to that, it shows that we can only really profitably play KK+.

HENDRIK62

In a DYM I think it has to be (B), there is definitely an argument to just steer clear, but we do not want to be too passive and allow one of the short stacks the chance to double up, any sign of strength from the BB and we can fold.

hhyftrftdr

The opportunity to eliminate one or both the shortys with what is highly likely to be the best hand is a no brainer surely?

It's very unrealistic we'll double them both up, so even if we bust one and double another, that leaves us in a great spot on the bubble and should cruise to the money.

Plus, if we raise, they might even fold, you know.

Plus it's already been mentioned that the larger stack in the BB doesn't understand ICM so I'm not concerned about being exploited by him because that doesn't appear to be in his poker repertoire.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: QQ DYM:

The opportunity to eliminate one or both the shortys with what is highly likely to be the best hand is a no brainer surely? It's very unrealistic we'll double them both up, so even if we bust one and double another, that leaves us in a great spot on the bubble and should cruise to the money. Plus, if we raise, they might even fold, you know. Plus it's already been mentioned that the larger stack in the BB doesn't understand ICM so I'm not concerned about being exploited by him because that doesn't appear to be in his poker repertoire.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

It's not bad to take the raise/fold line but we have no need to get involved and risk reducing our % to cash.

With the bb not understanding icm makes it even more likely that he flats our 600 with some Ax, KQ and PP and then what do we do when utg jams for 1.1k?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: QQ DYM:

In Response to Re: QQ DYM : It's not bad to take the raise/fold line but we have no need to get involved and risk reducing our % to cash. With the bb not understanding icm makes it even more likely that he flats our 600 with some Ax, KQ and PP and then what do we do when utg jams for 1.1k?
Posted by DoubleAAA

See, I view it as increasing our chances of cashing. There is a very real chance we can eliminate one, maybe even both in a single hand. Our liability even if we somehow lost to both isn't much, and that is a pretty unlikely outcome. Factor in when both just fold to our raise and the easy chips we pick up. Plus if we've been quite aggro (I assume this is the case to have the stack we do), expect to see shortys taking a stand with much worse than QQ.

If the BB is poor enough to flat Ax, KQ etc etc then it's a simple re ship on him if UTG goes with his hand? Doesn't sound like he is a savvy enough player to flat AA/KK in this spot and pull our pants down.