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how many BB should i do to really give the limpers worry in the mid and late stages of MTT

edited October 2014 in The Poker Clinic
being a low stakes MTT i don't expect the players to respect my bets frequent enough to be able to steal the blinds very much, the other problem i face against low MTT players is ever a stack of just 3BB will see folds done as we get near bubble.

AQ AK are hands i do want calls but at the same time i don't want multi way pots which puts me in a difficult spot wondering what will convince most to fold but get 1 to still call?
Lastogo Small blind   100.00 100.00 7160.00
KAEBESS Big blind   200.00 300.00 6425.00
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • Q
     
lawz1990 Call   200.00 500.00 4350.00
richpark06 Fold        
craigcu12 Raise   ?
craigcu12 Small blind   200.00 200.00 11010.00
callum1313 Big blind   400.00 600.00 5052.50
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • K
     
Lastogo Call   400.00 1000.00 6275.00
Glesgastar Fold        
nilesh1969 Fold        
richpark06 Call   400.00 1400.00 9602.50
craigcu12 ?

Comments

  • edited October 2014
    it's the limpers who cause the issue more than anything as they will certainly have folded the very bad hands instead it's Kxo Axo 72s 87o K10 55 sometimes even AK or 1010.

    if it's folded round to me on the button i'm not as much of an issue because these could hands as bad as 72o unfortunately i'm very rarely going to get myself the chance to do this on the button.
    callum1313 Small blind   150.00 150.00 3027.50
    Lastogo Big blind   300.00 450.00 11220.00
      Your hole cards
    • 4
    • 8
         
    Glesgastar Fold        
    bigg431 Fold        
    richpark06 Fold        
    craigcu12 Raise   600.00 1050.00 10010.00
    callum1313 Fold        
    Lastogo Call   300.00 1350.00 10920.00
    Flop
       
    • 7
    • K
    • 8
         
    Lastogo Check        
    craigcu12 Bet   675.00 2025.00 9335.00
    Lastogo Fold        
    craigcu12 Muck        
    craigcu12 Win   1350.00   10685.00
    craigcu12 Return   675.00 0.00 11360.00
  • edited October 2014
    I have been playing some low stakes MTT and I think your wrong about wanting calls?AK and AQ are ahead 90% of time but if I can take a pot down pre I will be more than happy, especially late stage with multi limped pot.

    I go to 450 /500 on hand 1 and in hand two I am probably going to shove, Amazon what calls you can get and if all else you win 10% onto stack if they fold.  No need to make it complicated that way :)
  • edited October 2014
    it's just a real shame to see a hand like AsKs get wasted preflop, then again i'll have the nightmare of sitting OOP with either a multiway pot of 3-4 callers or in a spot where i'm HU have put lots of chips in the pot and unlikely to see him fold.

    when i'm sitting on the button it's a bit easier, so although they are still awfully loose callers i don't have to be in as difficult a spot post flop.

    the thing about micro stakes  MTTs is their is they don't consist of many decent MTT players, these tables had 5 players who were loose weak and passive, the only agressive one was me really.

    sometimes it can begin to feel a bit frustrating and boring because it's limp after limp followed by blocker bet after blocker bet each and every hand.
  • edited October 2014
    We do want calls with AK/AQ when we iso. They're probably gonna be in bad shape almost always... if they limp/call any Ax/Kx/Qx, we have them in terrible shape, if they limp/call small PPs, effectively it's a flip in terms of equity, but we got the intiative and they're likely to see lots of overcards so are gonna just fold tons unless they flop a set so again they're going to the flop in pretty terrible shape.

    The most likely outcomes are gonna be...

    1) We get them to put a lot more chips in pre than they planned to and then they c/f flop - great for us.

    2) We get them to put a lot more chips in pre, and half the time they hit a pair, we have them dominated and stack them (or win a big pot) - great for us.

    Hand 1 - I'd go 500 ish.

    Hand 2 - I prob go like 1150-1200 ish and not folding pre.

    Hand 3 - I love a loose button open but I think this shallow 84s is pushing it a little, and a fold's probably better, unless the blinds are just uber nits to the point where we have minraise/fold ATC
  • edited October 2014
    with hand 3 yeh they were both supreme nits, the caller in that hand  had previously in SB folded a stack the size of just 3BB when i shipped my short stack earlier on.
  • edited October 2014
    Lastogo Small blind   100.00 100.00 7160.00
    KAEBESS Big blind   200.00 300.00 6425.00
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • Q
         
    lawz1990 Call   200.00 500.00 4350.00
    richpark06 Fold        
    craigcu12 Raise   800.00 1300.00 4860.00
    freeatlast Fold        
    Lastogo Fold        
    KAEBESS Call   600.00 1900.00 5825.00
    lawz1990 All-in   4350.00 6250.00 0.00
    craigcu12 Call   3750.00 10000.00 1110.00
    KAEBESS Fold        
    lawz1990 Show
    • 9
    • A
         
    craigcu12 Show
    • A
    • Q
         
    Flop
       
    • 10
    • 10
    • 5
         
    Turn
       
    • J
         
    River
       
    • Q
         
    craigcu12 Win Two Pairs, Queens and 10s 10000.00   11110.00
    craigcu12 Small blind   200.00 200.00 11010.00
    callum1313 Big blind   400.00 600.00 5052.50
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • K
         
    Lastogo Call   400.00 1000.00 6275.00
    Glesgastar Fold        
    nilesh1969 Fold        
    richpark06 Call   400.00 1400.00 9602.50
    craigcu12 All-in   11010.00 12410.00 0.00
    callum1313 Fold        
    Lastogo Fold        
    richpark06 Fold        
    craigcu12 Muck        
    craigcu12 Win   1600.00   1600.00
    craigcu12 Return   10810.00 0.00 12410.00
  • edited October 2014
    being in the CO i fealt happy enough to do a raise with AQ and if it did goa multiway pot i wouldn't have the issue on post flop play when it misses.

    that's what my main concern with AKs was, if i made it too small it could be 3 callers going into the pot, if the AK had then missed i'm now in a spot where i'll ch the board knowing a cbet would likely get atleast 1 caller, their would also be the question, do i call a min bet raise it or allow them to steal the pot away from me with ease?

    So best case snario seemed to be shove as they were very scared of being knocked out so although they waste chips they less keen on wasting a full stack.
  • edited October 2014
    craig, being scared of playing post flop is costing you chips.

    you have nothing but disparaging words for these players yet you prefer to shove a premium hand than take a flop.

    as it is they get to play perfectly against you as when you shove they can - very correctly - fold their middling hands with ease, and cheaply in full confidence that they are making the correct laydown.

    AKs is a fantastic hand it will flop:

    top pair pr better : 33% of the time

    nut FD [with overs dont forget] : 11% of the time

    gut shot [with overs dont forget] : 11% of the time

    in short it hits hard enough for you to want to GII 51% of the time [less than the sum of individual equities due to combo draws / pairs + draws]

    and you will ALWAYS have A-high showdown value and over cards to any flop.

    AKs capture a huge percentage of the pot post flop, dont be worried about weak players calling you.

    if you get a horror flop and action and have to fold then it doesnt matter, these are the laydowns tha good players routinely have to make.

    most of the time you will make more money by inflating the pot with a hand with great capture factor and getting a call [or two]
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