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K9 mid-late tourney

F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
edited December 2014 in Tournament Strategy
Sorry I can't find the hand history. This was from a couple nights ago in the £50BH. I had about 31k with blinds at 500/1k and pick up K9o in the CO. Min-r to 2k and then the BTN 3-bets to 4.2k. Pretty sure they're at it - I've just moved the table and it's late stages (in the money i think about 12 left) - so I end up 4betting to about 9.5k. They flat and I bet small - think about 7k/GII on a Q98r flop (can't really fold here I guess? maybe just shipping is better) - they had Q8 anyway and held.

Recently I've been faltering at the mid-late stages and just checking it's just due to variance and not bad play on my part. 

I guess the best play pre is to either ship or fold? And maybe not to bother opening if I'm going to fold to a 3-bet from the BTN. I just feel 31bb's is a big shove and it sucks when I've done this before believing opponent was 3-betting light only to get snapped by a big PP. At least if I 4-bet small I could get away if I'm shipped on (that also leads up to possibility of being 5-bet bluff shoved, but then I don't think too many players are going to be doing this anyway)

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited November 2014
    You think they are 'at it' because you're new to the table and its the business end?

    Just me who thinks it's better to keep things simple for the moment and fold to the 3bet, maybe even fold pre though is a tad nitty, at least until you have settled in at the table and identified the weaker spots/gamblers?

    30bb isn't chunks but imagine it wouldn't be too far off average stack at the time at a guess....gonna be in pretty poor shape on that flop when you get set in.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited November 2014
    I don't know, it was just more of an intuiton thing - I think because I didn't recognize the name and it was later in the tournament and they used a 3-bet size IP that's typical of a good player that I thought they were at it. Looking back I do agree that folding pre both times around is probably a safer option. Then again it's sort of results orientated because the past couple of 4-bet bluffs I did based on a read worked and villain just folded. And this time I was right in my read but maybe should have used a slightly bigger sizing to stop "spite IP calls" based on pot odds. 

    As for folding flop - SPR otf is almost 1 and when I bet 7k and get shoved on it was 15/16k more to call to win 64k so I needed 25%. On a Q98 I could be ahead of enough hands especially after potentially inducing with my small sizing. (like I've seen worse 9's, worse 8's and even stuff like AJ/AT/KJ) - and against Qx I have outs. Think if I was going to b/f I may as well just ship flop since it's going to be +ev. meh, I dunno - I guess 15/16k back is still enough to play with. I think all decisions seem pretty close now but maybe I should take less small edges in the latter stages and not just go for the win every time!
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited November 2014
    Yeah I think when you bet the flop you have to go with it, but you kinda know you're gonna have to hit realistically to stay alive (or dodge a load of cards!)

    Open shipping the flop might be the best line?

    Or just fold pre ;)
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1
    edited November 2014
    Personally with no antes I think we can just fold to the 3 bet pre because of two reasons. We still have a decent stack. 30 BB's is a lot I think with no antes. And secondly we are OOP so even if our 'read' is right its very hard to go with when you have less information to go on (i.e what they bet and how etc). Your going to get more folds shipping 2nd pair over a bet than having to guess and call off. Obviously hes calling with two pair but as you know by putting them to the test they can fold better. JJ/1010, weak Q's.
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  • chicknMeltchicknMelt
    edited December 2014
    In Response to K9 mid-late tourney:
    Sorry I can't find the hand history. This was from a couple nights ago in the £50BH. I had about 31k with blinds at 500/1k and pick up K9o in the CO. Min-r to 2k and then the BTN 3-bets to 4.2k. Pretty sure they're at it - I've just moved the table and it's late stages (in the money i think about 12 left) - so I end up 4betting to about 9.5k. They flat and I bet small - think about 7k/GII on a Q98r flop (can't really fold here I guess? maybe just shipping is better) - they had Q8 anyway and held. Recently I've been faltering at the mid-late stages and just checking it's just due to variance and not bad play on my part.  I guess the best play pre is to either ship or fold? And maybe not to bother opening if I'm going to fold to a 3-bet from the BTN. I just feel 31bb's is a big shove and it sucks when I've done this before believing opponent was 3-betting light only to get snapped by a big PP. At least if I 4-bet small I could get away if I'm shipped on (that also leads up to possibility of being 5-bet bluff shoved, but then I don't think too many players are going to be doing this anyway) Thoughts?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    don't adjust ur game based on the play of 1 player... just note what he did and play different vs him nxt time.

    looks to me like a good 4bet spot, and sizing is ok, but OP i might go a smidge bigger. either way, dont think much of his call.

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  • chicknMeltchicknMelt
    edited December 2014
    In Response to K9 mid-late tourney:
    Sorry I can't find the hand history. This was from a couple nights ago in the £50BH. I had about 31k with blinds at 500/1k and pick up K9o in the CO. Min-r to 2k and then the BTN 3-bets to 4.2k. Pretty sure they're at it - I've just moved the table and it's late stages (in the money i think about 12 left) - so I end up 4betting to about 9.5k. They flat and I bet small - think about 7k/GII on a Q98r flop (can't really fold here I guess? maybe just shipping is better) - they had Q8 anyway and held. Recently I've been faltering at the mid-late stages and just checking it's just due to variance and not bad play on my part.  I guess the best play pre is to either ship or fold? And maybe not to bother opening if I'm going to fold to a 3-bet from the BTN. I just feel 31bb's is a big shove and it sucks when I've done this before believing opponent was 3-betting light only to get snapped by a big PP. At least if I 4-bet small I could get away if I'm shipped on (that also leads up to possibility of being 5-bet bluff shoved, but then I don't think too many players are going to be doing this anyway) Thoughts?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    don't adjust ur game based on the play of 1 player... just note what he did and play different vs him nxt time.

    looks to me like a good 4bet spot, and sizing is ok, but OP i might go a smidge bigger. either way, dont think much of his call.

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  • reelerreeler
    edited December 2014
    In Response to K9 mid-late tourney:
    Sorry I can't find the hand history. This was from a couple nights ago in the £50BH. I had about 31k with blinds at 500/1k and pick up K9o in the CO. Min-r to 2k and then the BTN 3-bets to 4.2k. Pretty sure they're at it - I've just moved the table and it's late stages (in the money i think about 12 left) - so I end up 4betting to about 9.5k. They flat and I bet small - think about 7k/GII on a Q98r flop (can't really fold here I guess? maybe just shipping is better) - they had Q8 anyway and held. Recently I've been faltering at the mid-late stages and just checking it's just due to variance and not bad play on my part.  I guess the best play pre is to either ship or fold? And maybe not to bother opening if I'm going to fold to a 3-bet from the BTN. I just feel 31bb's is a big shove and it sucks when I've done this before believing opponent was 3-betting light only to get snapped by a big PP. At least if I 4-bet small I could get away if I'm shipped on (that also leads up to possibility of being 5-bet bluff shoved, but then I don't think too many players are going to be doing this anyway) Thoughts?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    im folding pre or shoving no way am i raising until i know the table and build a table image. all in otr fold m8
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  • reelerreeler
    edited December 2014
    another thing if your trying to win tournament then yes shove pre hoping to not run in to a hand or get lucky and win . or fold and wait for a better spot and higher finishing bigger cash etc 
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: K9 mid-late tourney:
    In Response to K9 mid-late tourney : don't adjust ur game based on the play of 1 player... just note what he did and play different vs him nxt time. looks to me like a good 4bet spot, and sizing is ok, but OP i might go a smidge bigger. either way, dont think much of his call.
    Posted by chicknMelt
    What did I suggest I should adjust that you're saying I shouldn't? (if that makes sense haha)

    K9o is kind of a loose open and w/o knowing reads could get me into trouble. On the other hand... that raise gets a BTN fold at least the majority of the time. And the amount you can increase your stack from 1/2 opens every orbit makes a huge difference.

    Don't think I had any time for a note!! 

    @ reeler: meh, maybe. If I had more solid of a read then maybe. But it was only a gut read and I didn't want to risk everything on that, hence the smaller 4-bet (I'd make the same play with QQ-AA plenty) And getting snapped off when you ship K9o isn't pretty. Rather ship with some suited connecter tbh :)
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