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perhaps its obvious but bear with me

edited November 2014 in The Poker Clinic
aSmall blind 40.0040.008850.00
bBig blind 80.00120.003650.00
 Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
   
 Fold    
 Fold    
 Fold    
HENDRIK62Raise 160.00280.0011627.50
aCall 120.00400.008730.00
bRaise 560.00960.003090.00
HENDRIK62Raise 960.001920.0010667.50
aCall 960.002880.007770.00
bAll-in 3090.005970.000.00
HENDRIK62All-in 10667.5016637.500.00
aAll-in 7770.0024407.500.00
HENDRIK62Unmatched bet 2897.5021510.002897.50
aShow
  • J
  • 7
   
bShow
  • Q
  • Q
   
HENDRIK62Show
  • K
  • K
   
Flop
  
  • 4
  • 5
  • 10
   
Turn
  
  • 7
   
River
  
  • J
   
aWinTwo Pairs, Jacks and 7s21510.00 21510.00
Ok, I know in the greater scheme of things getting a loose call like this is good (this is not a whiney bad beat post), but i had a thought about this.
Would anyone ever recommend simply calling the short stacks raise, and then pushing the SB (a) into a decision on the flop, given that he has invested half his chips can he fold (do I want him to?)?
Or is it simply too dangerous and open to exploitation allowing someone to see a flop and potentially picking up a draw, or does it potentially keep some weaker speculative hands in for extra value if they do catch a small piece of the flop (I realise that it is dangerous as only strongish hands can call such a raise) 
In this instance its just a bad run out, but I have seen this kind of action result in people being forced in pre, who would never be able to continue on a dry flop had they been given the oportunity to then fold out (ie not forced AIP).
I think in the long term isolating is the way to play it, but couldn't help thinking about other options.....thought please?

Comments

  • edited November 2014
    Wow. I wouldve shoved after first re raise. also my initial raise would have been bigger.
    What a honking call though lol. 

  • edited November 2014
    Yeah I'd have raised bigger first out and as the 4b, but maybe it wouldn't have made much difference in this case... min raise seems quite tiny when sitting with over 100bb effective (vs J7 guy), less fussed about the shorty really as we want to get the near double up from the bigger stack in this spot.

    Was this a bounty hunter tourni (only way I can see J7s coming along for the ride... not a great play like, but may have seen it as value if the shorty had a big wedge on their head)?
  • edited November 2014
    The only thing thats up for discussion here is out 4b sizing - which is to small. For me and i might be wrong the decision is between small 4b and shove, which will depend on the table. 
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: perhaps its obvious but bear with me:
    The only thing thats up for discussion here is out 4b sizing - which is to small. For me and i might be wrong the decision is between small 4b and shove, which will depend on the table. 
    Posted by The_Don90
    He does a small 4bet which you say is too small, then you say its either a small 4bet or shove....

    If you think you can induce something from either then I think the click back is ok. Looks like you might be p1ss1ing around a bit in position too.
  • edited November 2014

    My only question (although it doesn't have TOO much of a bearing.) Is it a bounty hunter?

    With regards to just calling the 3bet. I've seen pros do it, not that it makes it right!! lol

    I suppose the things to consider are: if the flop comes the same, quite dry but with the flush draw, how difficult is your decision if you are bet into/shoved on? On this flop you might think AQ AJ QJ clubs would shove, any A10 QQ JJ and possible sets. Player "a" seems like a maniac (unless REALLY short). Just smooth calling means you have under-repped your hand so you could induce from 77 88 99.

    Whilst I wouldn't do it often, I think to balance your range, trap people calling the 3bet is a good play, especially against an agro player. You would probably get max value. HU would obviously be safer, the 3 way aspect makes it a bit trickier but I still think you could justify it.

    At the end of the day, if we all play "standard" poker we would be too predictable.

  • edited November 2014
    I think once player B makes the three bet, he's deffo decided he's getting it all-in with it, so I would 4bet shove to isolate. That way player A has a much tougher decision to make & could make the fold, I would much prefer to go HU rather than 3 way.

    It would be pretty loose if player A then comes along for the ride but so be it, I'm still happy to roll with it.
  • edited November 2014
    Thanks for all the responses folks.

    It was the Monday DTD not a B/H, he justified the call by saying its a cheap tourney...

    hhyftrftdr hit the nail on the nail on the head i clicked back to look like i was raising the button and got caught with my pants down. Player b (shorty) had raise folded previously when shoved on so I didn't want to lose him.

    On reflection it was no surpise player a came along with 4 bet as he had come along so often pre, so better sizing would perhaps have dissuaded him...what would you guys suggest around 1500 enough or 2000?

    ShaunyT had a lad flat my 3bet when he was holding AA in the roller on Sunday, he got two streets out of me (to be fair thats not hard...lol) and it completely threw me and made me very wary going up against him.

    Every day is a school day I guess.
  • edited November 2014
    We have position and KK....really not fussed if the sb comes along as well. Sounds like he is a bit fishy so let him hang himself on any number of flops. If the board comes a bit funky then we can pot control with the button.
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: perhaps its obvious but bear with me:
    In Response to Re: perhaps its obvious but bear with me : He does a small 4bet which you say is too small, then you say its either a small 4bet or shove.... If you think you can induce something from either then I think the click back is ok. Looks like you might be p1ss1ing around a bit in position too.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Personally i prefer just over a click if i go small in this kind of spot 1300-1500 region. Just to get that little extra value when they call
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: perhaps its obvious but bear with me:
    In Response to Re: perhaps its obvious but bear with me : Personally i prefer just over a click if i go small in this kind of spot 1300-1500 region. Just to get that little extra value when they call
    Posted by The_Don90
    I don't think the BB is calling out of that stack, so its one of the rare times I quite like a click back. As said before, can induce quite nicely and give the impression you're just messing around on the button.
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