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Please settle a disagreement for me!!

edited December 2014 in The Poker Clinic
lovejunky and I were discussing a hand on top of the pots where rosiedog had aj on a kq5 flop the opponent led out and rosiedog called. The turn is a two and insignificant and the opponent leads out for 800 pounds to which rosie dog calls. The river is a 10 making the nuts for rosiedog.

Now I said it was an expensive float to get to the river and lovejunky said that's not the definition of a float.

he said a float would be if he had called with a hand like 45 suited and planned to take it away on a later street

please would you give your opinions

Comments

  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Please settle a disagreement for me!!:

    Lovejunky is correct-a float is where you call intending to bluff bet or raise on a later street....
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to Please settle a disagreement for me!! : Lovejunky is correct-a float is where you call intending to bluff bet or raise on a later street....
    Posted by Essexphil
    I understand that what lovejunky is saying is a float but rosiedog would have bluffed the river had he missed therefore making his play a float too. if this was not a float play please explain why?
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!! : I understand that what lovejunky is saying is a float but rosiedog would have bluffed the river had he missed therefore making his play a float too. if this was not a float play please explain why?
    Posted by pacificjoe
    A float is a pure bluff, with no prospect of becoming the better hand on the turn/river
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!! : A float is a pure bluff, with no prospect of becoming the better hand on the turn/river
    Posted by Essexphil
    so what your saying is if I guy has ak with a board of undercards to the turn this is not a float if he hits an ace or king on river and wins the hand?
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!! : so what your saying is if I guy has ak with a board of undercards to the turn this is not a float if he hits an ace or king on river and wins the hand?
    Posted by pacificjoe
    Not really-floating is where you call what you believe to be a c-bet on the flop when you have missed, with the intention of betting on a later street by representing a hand when you have nothing. The key issue here is that you are sure that you are behind-in your example, the player may believe he is ahead on the flop....
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!! : Not really-floating is where you call what you believe to be a c-bet on the flop when you have missed, with the intention of betting on a later street by representing a hand when you have nothing. The key issue here is that you are sure that you are behind-in your example, the player may believe he is ahead on the flop....
    Posted by Essexphil

    thanks for your input phil
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!! : A float is a pure bluff, with no prospect of becoming the better hand on the turn/river
    Posted by Essexphil
    I disagree. A float can be a pure bluff but I believe it's important where possible to float with hands that at least have some equity. 

    I guess such a float could be described as a semi-float. (I researched an article on this): http://www.parttimepoker.com/floating-in-no-limit-part-2-the-semi-float

    The problems with pure floating is that you can essentially do so with any hand, and if you have no way of distinguising which hands to float and when then you could find yourself floating far too much. As such, a good player is going to try and exploit this (either by 2 barreling more often or by check/raising you on the turn for example) If we float with hand that have at least some equity (bottom pair, gutshots, overcards to board) instead of floating with 56 on a KQ8 board then we're generally going to be doing better off. We'll get more respect when we bet OTT because we aren't just floating with anything on the flop.

    On a KQ4 board (can't recall turn, it was blank?) AJ might be ahead on the flop and can't be classed as a float but is probably not ahead by the turn. Villain could be bluffing with better hands as well as value betting thinly. We clearly don't have the odds to call for the gutshot (nor the odds to call against villains range - since even tho they could be bluffing with a worse hand some % it's not enough to make the call profitable. So we're floating here hoping to take the hand away on the river. But it's nice that we can hit the nuts too. 



  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    In Response to  Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!! : I disagree. A float can be a pure bluff but I believe it's important where possible to float with hands that at least have some equity.  I guess such a float could be described as a semi-float. (I researched an article on this):  http://www.parttimepoker.com/floating-in-no-limit-part-2-the-semi-float The problems with pure floating is that you can essentially do so with any hand, and if you have no way of distinguising which hands to float and when then you could find yourself floating far too much. As such, a good player is going to try and exploit this (either by 2 barreling more often or by check/raising you on the turn for example) If we float with hand that have at least some equity (bottom pair, gutshots, overcards to board) instead of floating with 56 on a KQ8 board then we're generally going to be doing better off. We'll get more respect when we bet OTT because we aren't just floating with anything on the flop. On a KQ4 board (can't recall turn, it was blank?) AJ might be ahead on the flop and can't be classed as a float but is probably not ahead by the turn. Villain could be bluffing with better hands as well as value betting thinly. We clearly don't have the odds to call for the gutshot (nor the odds to call against villains range - since even tho they could be bluffing with a worse hand some % it's not enough to make the call profitable. So we're floating here hoping to take the hand away on the river. But it's nice that we can hit the nuts too. 
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    thank you for your indepth analysis and these are my thoughts too its a very interesting subject especially for online player where players don't seem to be able to fold very often
  • edited November 2014
    I think floating in general is just a way of setting up a bluff at a later street when you feel you opponent is pretty weak himself., in terms of on the flop a float cant really be for pure bluffing purposes as its rare you are drawing dead on the flop, and when you are its going to be hard to bluff your opponent off a hand which has got you drawing dead on the flop, generally i see floating as a good oppotunity when you have a gut shot on a paired or 2flush board as you have many ways to win the hand and lots of great cards can come which will be very easy to bluff with... its always pretty reckless to plan to float with zero equity a pot unless your opponent is a total nit who you feel you have a big edge over.
  • edited November 2014
    AJ is a bluff-catcher, and not a float. Rosiedogs play is quite standard
  • edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Please settle a disagreement for me!!:
    AJ is a bluff-catcher, and not a float. Rosiedogs play is quite standard
    Posted by percival09
    On the flop I agree but no way is the turn call correct w/o any plan to bluff on some rivers. Against a standard villain range AJ doesn't have the required equity to call turn...
  • edited December 2014
    rosiedog has far too much money and chanced it intending to shove even if they missed 

  • edited December 2014
    If HU, AJ performs better as a bluff-catcher than 66-JJ which makes it a call. If we fold 5x, 66-JJ and AJ/AT ott then we're going to be folding too much, so we need to call some, and since AJ and 66 should pretty much be the same hand if villain is relatively polarised which he probably is on this texture, then AJ is better because of our blockers and our nut equity
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