this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable

mrdavies

dubzs	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£21.24
WAYKO	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£35.37
	Your hole cards	8 6
BrunoDante	Fold
thetimkrul	Fold
fitzyoo5	Fold
mrdavies	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£26.49
dubzs	Raise		£1.90	£2.80	£19.34
WAYKO	Fold
mrdavies	Call		£1.40	£4.20	£25.09
Flop
		7 9 9
dubzs	Bet		£2.20	£6.40	£17.14
mrdavies	Call		£2.20	£8.60	£22.89
Turn
		5
dubzs	Check
mrdavies	Bet		£4.30	£12.90	£18.59
dubzs	Call		£4.30	£17.20	£12.84
River
		A
dubzs	Check
mrdavies	All-in		£18.59	£35.79	£0.00
dubzs	All-in		£12.84	£48.63	£0.00
mrdavies	Unmatched bet		£5.75	£42.88	£5.75
dubzs	Show	A A
mrdavies	Show	8 6
dubzs	Win	Full House, Aces and 9s	£41.08		£41.08

dubzs	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£21.50
Lowfields	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£34.48
UP	Sit out
	Your hole cards	4 4
liamboi11	Raise		£0.80	£1.10	£20.28
WAYKO	Fold
mrdavies	Call		£0.80	£1.90	£85.47
dubzs	Fold
Lowfields	Fold
Flop
		9 8 6
liamboi11	Bet		£1.00	£2.90	£19.28
mrdavies	Call		£1.00	£3.90	£84.47
Turn
		4
liamboi11	Bet		£2.60	£6.50	£16.68
mrdavies	Raise		£7.00	£13.50	£77.47
liamboi11	All-in		£16.68	£30.18	£0.00
mrdavies	Call		£12.28	£42.46	£65.19
liamboi11	Show	9 9
mrdavies	Show	4 4
River
		3
liamboi11	Win	Three 9s	£40.66

liamboi11	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£28.89
mrdavies	Big blind		£0.20	£0.40	£33.69
	Your hole cards	9 9
feetham11	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£16.20
ActionDanS	Call		£0.20	£0.80	£20.32
Lowfields	Raise		£1.20	£2.00	£19.35
Massoud10	Fold
liamboi11	Fold
mrdavies	Call		£1.00	£3.00	£32.69
feetham11	Call		£1.00	£4.00	£15.20
ActionDanS	Call		£1.00	£5.00	£19.32
Flop
		Q 10 9
mrdavies	Bet		£2.50	£7.50	£30.19
feetham11	Fold
ActionDanS	Fold
Lowfields	Raise		£7.20	£14.70	£12.15
mrdavies	All-in		£30.19	£44.89	£0.00
Lowfields	All-in		£12.15	£57.04	£0.00
mrdavies	Unmatched bet		£13.34	£43.70	£13.34
mrdavies	Show	9 9
Lowfields	Show	10 10
Turn
		3
River
		2
Lowfields	Win	Three 10s	£41.90

Josh72J	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£29.06
mrdavies	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£34.45
	Your hole cards	A 10
Ilovemydog	Fold
TOLANU	Fold
tony_pkrA	Fold
nslater112	Call		£0.50	£1.25	£28.80
Josh72J	Fold
mrdavies	Raise		£1.25	£2.50	£33.20
nslater112	Call		£1.25	£3.75	£27.55
Flop
		A 9 Q
mrdavies	Bet		£2.81	£6.56	£30.39
nslater112	Call		£2.81	£9.37	£24.74
Turn
		10
mrdavies	Bet		£7.03	£16.40	£23.36
nslater112	All-in		£10.44	£26.84	£14.30
mrdavies	All-in		£3.41	£30.25	£19.95
mrdavies	Show	A 10
nslater112	Show	J Q
River
		3
nslater112	Win	Flush to the Ace	£28.73		£43.03

-ACERAG-

In Response to this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

dubzs Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £21.24 WAYKO Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £35.37   Your hole cards 8 6       BrunoDante Fold         thetimkrul Fold         fitzyoo5 Fold         mrdavies Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £26.49 dubzs Raise   £1.90 £2.80 £19.34 WAYKO Fold         mrdavies Call   £1.40 £4.20 £25.09 Flop     7 9 9       dubzs Bet   £2.20 £6.40 £17.14 mrdavies Call   £2.20 £8.60 £22.89 Turn     5       dubzs Check         mrdavies Bet   £4.30 £12.90 £18.59 dubzs Call   £4.30 £17.20 £12.84 River     A       dubzs Check         mrdavies All-in   £18.59 £35.79 £0.00 dubzs All-in   £12.84 £48.63 £0.00 mrdavies Unmatched bet   £5.75 £42.88 £5.75 dubzs Show A A       mrdavies Show 8 6       dubzs Win Full House, Aces and 9s £41.08   £41.08 dubzs Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £21.50 Lowfields Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £34.48 UP Sit out           Your hole cards 4 4       liamboi11 Raise   £0.80 £1.10 £20.28 WAYKO Fold         mrdavies Call   £0.80 £1.90 £85.47 dubzs Fold         Lowfields Fold         Flop     9 8 6       liamboi11 Bet   £1.00 £2.90 £19.28 mrdavies Call   £1.00 £3.90 £84.47 Turn     4       liamboi11 Bet   £2.60 £6.50 £16.68 mrdavies Raise   £7.00 £13.50 £77.47 liamboi11 All-in   £16.68 £30.18 £0.00 mrdavies Call   £12.28 £42.46 £65.19 liamboi11 Show 9 9       mrdavies Show 4 4       River     3       liamboi11 Win Three 9s £40.66 liamboi11 Small blind   £0.20 £0.20 £28.89 mrdavies Big blind   £0.20 £0.40 £33.69   Your hole cards 9 9       feetham11 Call   £0.20 £0.60 £16.20 ActionDanS Call   £0.20 £0.80 £20.32 Lowfields Raise   £1.20 £2.00 £19.35 Massoud10 Fold         liamboi11 Fold         mrdavies Call   £1.00 £3.00 £32.69 feetham11 Call   £1.00 £4.00 £15.20 ActionDanS Call   £1.00 £5.00 £19.32 Flop     Q 10 9       mrdavies Bet   £2.50 £7.50 £30.19 feetham11 Fold         ActionDanS Fold         Lowfields Raise   £7.20 £14.70 £12.15 mrdavies All-in   £30.19 £44.89 £0.00 Lowfields All-in   £12.15 £57.04 £0.00 mrdavies Unmatched bet   £13.34 £43.70 £13.34 mrdavies Show 9 9       Lowfields Show 10 10       Turn     3       River     2       Lowfields Win Three 10s £41.90   Josh72J Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £29.06 mrdavies Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £34.45   Your hole cards A 10       Ilovemydog Fold         TOLANU Fold         tony_pkrA Fold         nslater112 Call   £0.50 £1.25 £28.80 Josh72J Fold         mrdavies Raise   £1.25 £2.50 £33.20 nslater112 Call   £1.25 £3.75 £27.55 Flop     A 9 Q       mrdavies Bet   £2.81 £6.56 £30.39 nslater112 Call   £2.81 £9.37 £24.74 Turn     10       mrdavies Bet   £7.03 £16.40 £23.36 nslater112 All-in   £10.44 £26.84 £14.30 mrdavies All-in   £3.41 £30.25 £19.95 mrdavies Show A 10       nslater112 Show J Q       River     3       nslater112 Win Flush to the Ace £28.73   £43.03
Posted by mrdavies

Very bad run of cards, looking at the first hand dubzs could have played any big ace that way, so the shove on the river is a profitable play, just unlucky he had aces, rewind to the three bet pre, could you have puts him on aces ? I know I would not be folding in a million years. The next two hand been set over set are just cold decks. The third hand is interesting as what did you put him on when you shoved on the flop, as if its the nuts and K J your 35 % dog so its a fold. The forth hand you got your money been a 64% fav. I know your a student of the game, so that bad run, how did you deal with it ?

Nuggy962

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : Very bad run of cards, looking at the first hand dubzs could have played any big ace that way, so the shove on the river is a profitable play, just unlucky he had aces, rewind to the three bet pre, could you have puts him on aces ? I know I would not be folding in a million years. The next two hand been set over set are just cold decks. The third hand is interesting as what did you put him on when he shoved on the flop, as if its the nuts and K J your 35 % dog so its a fold. The forth hand you got your money been a 64% fav. I know your a student of the game, so that bad run, how did you deal with it ?
Posted by -ACERAG-

By the looks of it a lot better than you do!!

hhyftrftdr

Lovely Nuggy

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : The third hand is interesting as what did you put him on when he shoved on the flop, as if its the nuts and K J your 35 % dog so its a fold.
Posted by -ACERAG-

In the 3rd hand lowfields doesn't shove he raises to £7.20 making the pot £14.70

We have to call £4.70 more, so we're getting over 3/1. 

Even if he has KJ and we have 35% equity I believe we have the right price to call even though we know we are behind. 

"It's not about getting it in ahead, it's about getting it in with a good price"

(Don't be mean if I'm wrong, I'm trying to learn maths! 2+2 is

mrdavies

rtc	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£30.58
claretat01	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£63.50
	Your hole cards	K K
robc2802	Raise		£0.90	£1.35	£26.31
hurst05	Fold
mrdavies	Raise		£3.30	£4.65	£33.17
BigHawk89	Fold
rtc	Fold
claretat01	Call		£3.00	£7.65	£60.50
robc2802	Fold
Flop
		6 8 4
claretat01	All-in		£60.50	£68.15	£0.00
mrdavies	All-in		£33.17	£101.32	£0.00
claretat01	Unmatched bet		£27.33	£73.99	£27.33
claretat01	Show	K 8
mrdavies	Show	K K
Turn
		8
River
		7
claretat01	Win	Three 8s	£72.19		£99.52

-ACERAG-

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to  Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : In the 3rd hand lowfields doesn't shove he raises to £7.20 making the pot £14.70 We have to call £4.70 more, so we're getting over 3/1.  Even if he has KJ and we have 35% equity I believe we have the right price to call even though we know we are behind.  "It's not about getting it in ahead, it's about getting it in with a good price" (Don't be mean if I'm wrong, I'm trying to learn maths! 2+2 is
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Should have said "what did you put him on when you shoved on the flop".

Many thanks for highlighting the above issue.

 So in summary if you know your behind, but you have the correct pot odds to call, the call is correct, but surely in the long run this is a losing play ?

-ACERAG-

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : By the looks of it a lot better than you do!!
Posted by Nuggy962

Many thanks for the hilarious comment. 

I was asking to see how other people deal with bad beats at the micro stakes, so options are take a break, shrug it off, go for a run, watch Eastendes etc etc, other options are avialble.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : Should have said "what did you put him on when you shoved on the flop".   Many thanks for highlighting the above issue.   So in summary if you know your behind, but you have the correct pot odds to call, the call is correct, but surely in the long run this is a losing play ?
Posted by -ACERAG-

No you are pinting money long term by getting your chips or money in at a good price. 

Take a sporting example. 

Say you expect England to beat Germany 20% of the time, that's odds of 4/1. 

If a bookmaker offered you odds of 9/1 on England to beat Germany this represents value, as we only need to win once every 10 times when in reality we will win twice every 10 times. 

Even though 8 times out of 10 you will lose your money, over time you will show a profit on your investment because the times we win more than make up for the times we lose. 

Using a £1 stake on the above example, we would run 10 trials. 

Germany win -£1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

England win +£10

Germany win -£1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

England win +£10

Net total = +£12.

So even though most of the time we lose our money, it's still a profitable (or +ev) investment overtime due to the price we're being offered.

If however we were offered 2/1 on an England win, we shouldn't invest our money. We should 'fold' because the price we're being offered isn't good enough to show a profit over time. 

 Germany win -£1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

England win +£3

Germany win -£1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

Germany win - £1

England win +£3

Overall = - £2

So you can see the price we're being offered on a certain outcome given our chance of winning (equity) makes all the difference as to wether we should invest our money (call) or not (fold). 

(sorry for the very basic/long winded post, it's something I'm learning/trying to use more in poker myself atm)

-ACERAG-

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : No you are pinting money long term by getting your chips or money in at a good price.  Take a sporting example.  Say you expect England to beat Germany 20% of the time, that's odds of 4/1.  If a bookmaker offered you odds of 9/1 on England to beat Germany this represents value, as we only need to win once every 10 times when in reality we will win twice every 10 times.  Even though 8 times out of 10 you will lose your money, over time you will show a profit on your investment because the times we win more than make up for the times we lose.  Using a £1 stake on the above example, we would run 10 trials.  Germany win -£1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 England win +£10 Germany win -£1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 England win +£10 Net total = +£12. So even though most of the time we lose our money, it's still a profitable (or +ev) investment overtime due to the price we're being offered. If however we were offered 2/1 on an England win, we shouldn't invest our money. We should 'fold' because the price we're being offered isn't good enough to show a profit over time.   Germany win -£1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 England win +£3 Germany win -£1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 Germany win - £1 England win +£3 Overall = - £2 So you can see the price we're being offered on a certain outcome given our chance of winning (equity) makes all the difference as to wether we should invest our money (call) or not (fold).  (sorry for the very basic/long winded post, it's something I'm learning/trying to use more in poker myself atm)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Fantastic example DOHHHHHH, but surely due to the variation in pot sizes over 10 hands and the odds you are getting you really will not know if it has been a profitable play or not, say for example if you are faced with the same hand ie flopped a set and faced with a all in and getting good odds to call, without writing them down and actual calculating wins and losses or is this not the correct way at looking at the situation ? interesting ?

mrdavies

I struggle to deal with them to be honest acerag. Maybe im not 100% rolled out for NL10 and above but if I take one extremely bad beat more tend to follow.. A lot of these hands nothing can do done abot but other times you just play more rash because your head has gone.

Tilt is probably my downfall but I cant help it, when someone shoves £30 on the flop with K8 v my KK with pair of 8s and then hits 8 on turn I can't accept that & thats where you need to either take a break for a bit or just say oh well onto the next one.. but I personally struggle to accept losing to hands like that but it is poker lol. (and they all seem to come at once too) I could post a lot more from last 24hours!!!

-ACERAG-

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

I struggle to deal with them to be honest acerag. Maybe im not 100% rolled out for NL10 and above but if I take one extremely bad beat more tend to follow.. A lot of these hands nothing can do done abot but other times you just play more rash because your head has gone. Tilt is probably my downfall but I cant help it, when someone shoves £30 on the flop with K8 v my KK with pair of 8s and then hits 8 on turn I can't accept that & thats where you need to either take a break for a bit or just say oh well onto the next one.. but I personally struggle to accept losing to hands like that but it is poker lol. (and they all seem to come at once too) I could post a lot more from last 24hours!!!
Posted by mrdavies

Same here if you have not guessed I suffer severely from tilt, my mind set is at the beginning of a session play solid poker and I will have a profitable session , then I have a bad beat, miss every flop, watch ppl playing any 2 and hitting and this tilts me to the max.

Watching some poker training videos last night, not sure who the pro was but he was playing NL10, playing 16 tables and he stated playing at NL10 you have to just play ABC, as theirs no other way to play them, no one folds if they have a flush draw, nobody really thinks what you have its just soley focused on their hands, don’t over think situations and standard play works etc etc, so this may be the way forward.

 

Have a butchers see what you think, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc2A7886Xrg

kidwiz10

Hey fella ive always noticed with you your forever goin from table to table 1 minute your playing nl10 next your on a nl50 table you lose a little bit then instant stand.

You say your not rolled for above nl10? so thats what £200/£250 tops so basically every time your on a nl30/nl50 table your basically cutting a thin line towards goin bust once that bad run kicks in.

You say you tilt a lot and sein that kk v k8 hand with the pot at stake compared to what your roll is gunna hurt you a hell of a lot mentally and maybe this is why you jump to higher levels to chase back what you just lost is what im guessing  , personally you wanna just stay at the levels where when you have a bad run of losses its not gunna effect you and your game then stick you on tilt but buy playing for pots which are 1/3 what you have in your account is always gunna effect you so id just stay at nl10 where your close enough rolled to that then you wont run the risk of goin broke.

Hope that helps

Jac35

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

I struggle to deal with them to be honest acerag. Maybe im not 100% rolled out for NL10 and above but if I take one extremely bad beat more tend to follow.. A lot of these hands nothing can do done abot but other times you just play more rash because your head has gone. Tilt is probably my downfall but I cant help it, when someone shoves £30 on the flop with K8 v my KK with pair of 8s and then hits 8 on turn I can't accept that & thats where you need to either take a break for a bit or just say oh well onto the next one.. but I personally struggle to accept losing to hands like that but it is poker lol. (and they all seem to come at once too) I could post a lot more from last 24hours!!!
Posted by mrdavies

Genuinely curious. Does it help you in anyway to post these hands?

I multitable Dyms and see some pretty rough beats on the bubble from time to time. No problem, next game. I've forgotten what happened 2 minutes later.

If you're multitabling cash then you're going to see plenty of bad beats during a session.

I'm trying to get my head around the bolded bit.

This is great for you, you should be cheering . You make a note straightaway and hope this guy is on your table every day.

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : Fantastic example DOHHHHHH, but surely due to the variation in pot sizes over 10 hands and the odds you are getting you really will not know if it has been a profitable play or not, say for example if you are faced with the same hand ie flopped a set and faced with a all in and getting good odds to call, without writing them down and actual calculating wins and losses or is this not the correct way at looking at the situation ? interesting ?
Posted by -ACERAG-

forget about putting your opponent on a hand.

they arent playing a hand they are playing a range and will play many hands in similar ways in different situations

you are often correct to call even if you know you will be behind more often than you are ahead.

this doesnt apply just to draws or situations with cards to come. it applies to rivers when equities are fixed.

-----------

for example.

pot is £100

we have £100 left

we have a bluff catcher and villain jams.

we know his range perfectly as we have played and studied his game. here his jamming range comprises:

60% value that beats us
40% bluffs that we beat.

if we call we are behind WAY more often than we are ahead.

lets look at the expected value [ev] of calling v folding in terms of our final stack when we call v fold.

if we fold: we neither gain nor lose chips. and we end the hand with £100

if we call:

40% of the time we win the pot and end up with a stack of £300 [pot + bet + our call]

60% of the time we lose our call of £100 and our stack.

our final stack after a call will be:

[.4 x 300] + [.6 x 0]

= 120 + 0

= 120

remember when we fold, we end the hand with £100

so calling gains us £20 on average compared to folding

we should call even though we lose the hand 60% of the time

-----

one important lesson to take from this is that even when you are making the correct plays it can seem that you are 'wrong' more often than you are 'right'. dont be results orientated.

if you review a hand and deem your play correct than the result is meaningless. it doesnt matter what part of his range villain turned up with.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable:

In Response to Re: this toook around 40mins of play...unbelievable : Fantastic example DOHHHHHH, but surely due to the variation in pot sizes over 10 hands and the odds you are getting you really will not know if it has been a profitable play or not, say for example if you are faced with the same hand ie flopped a set and faced with a all in and getting good odds to call, without writing them down and actual calculating wins and losses or is this not the correct way at looking at the situation ? interesting ?
Posted by -ACERAG-

Yah poker is much more complex than fixed odds betting, and also sports betting because there are so many variable factors (see teddys excellent post above). 

That's why poker is a skill game, and it's something people struggle to grasp. 

When people make seemingly bad calls with weak hands inexperienced players will attribute that to bad play and then start to bemoan their luck when really the calls are often correct given the price offered to them at the time. 

Going through a hand and wrriting down all the possible hands an opponent can have, then working out our equity against that range of hands and comparing it to the price we're being offered is of course impossible in game. We only have 10 seconds to act... 

But it's good practise to do it before or after your session, it will hold you in good stead in the future 

-----------------------

Take the 99 hand you mentioned v lowfields. 

He's raised 2 limpers in position pre flop and then raised our lead bet on the flop of QT9r. 

Readless I'd expect him to have a very strong hand here, so I'd start looking at all the potential holdings he might have. 

KJ and J8s for sure, flopped straights will almost definitely raise. 

QQ and TT for flopped sets. 

QT, Q9 and 9T, all 2pair hands will almost certainly raise a draw heavy flop for value and protection.

AA and KK are there, as well as AQ and maybe KQ, JJ, QJ and TJ. 

These are all hands our opponent could have when they raise the flop, we're not certain about anything when we have been given no information on the player but it seems reasonable for your average player at 20nl to value those hands strongly on this board. 

We have to work out how much equity we have against that whole range of hands in order to determine how to proceed against his flop raise. 

If you haven't already got it, go to www.pokerstrategy.com and download a free tool called equilab. It will do the calculations for you. 

Board: Td Qs 9c

Equity Win Tie

MP2 68.10% 67.13% 0.97% { 99 }

MP3 31.90% 30.94% 0.97% { TT+, AQs, KJs+, Q9s+, JTs, J8s, T9s, AQo, KJo+, Q9o+, JTo, T9o }

http://gyazo.com/cd73604152d4d8a707329f9253a8c52e

As you can see we're a very big favourite in this hand against the range of hands our opponent could have. 

Therefore we have to continue by at least calling or sometimes raising dependant on lots of other different factors.

But we can clearly see that folding isn't an option at this point, especially as we are being given over 3/1 pot odds and therefore only need to win the hand 25% of the time when in reality we win the hand 67% of the time. 

This is a clear +ev spot for us, and we will win lots of money over time by taking it. 

As we learn more about our opponents, we can narrow the range of hands we give them in each particular spot. 

This is the skill or the 'art' of poker. Of course as we play better players, we are put in much tougher spots, decisions become alot closer and they're harder to beat. 

That's the challenge of poker, if you chose to accept it! (its tough!!!)

NoseyBonk

Thanks, JJ / Teddy
Brilliant posts there.