F/Hse vs KKKK - Cooler or Bad play during the hand

GaryLaud

So I played this hand the other night and thought I did ok, and ended up making a full house. Villain acts before me and puts in a chunky raise. I shove the rest of my chips and find villain snap calls me. What they turned over, was just simply SHOCKING!!! He/She had KK's and I find they had QUADS vs my F/HSE!

Thoughts?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
maxthomas	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.52
IcemanKP	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.41
	Your hole cards	J 10
GaryLaud	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.12
manmonkey	Raise		£0.08	£0.18	£4.27
maxthomas	Fold
IcemanKP	Fold
GaryLaud	Call		£0.04	£0.22	£2.08
Flop
		10 3 K
GaryLaud	Bet		£0.08	£0.30	£2.00
manmonkey	Call		£0.08	£0.38	£4.19
Turn
		10
GaryLaud	Bet		£0.32	£0.70	£1.68
manmonkey	Call		£0.32	£1.02	£3.87
River
		K
GaryLaud	Bet		£0.51	£1.53	£1.17
manmonkey	Raise		£1.94	£3.47	£1.93
GaryLaud	All-in		£1.17	£4.64	£0.00
manmonkey	Unmatched bet		£0.26	£4.38	£2.19
GaryLaud	Show	J 10
manmonkey	Show	K K
manmonkey	Win	Four Kings	£4.05

TeddyBloat

Dont limp pre

Dont donk flop, definately not that small sizing, but yah dont donk

X/c river 

Talon

A few quick thoughts as requested.

1)  Why are you short-stacked. Just lost a big pot or by choice. Short stacking is not optimal play because it limits what you can win in any hand

2) Open limping is never good. Though i see it in virtually every hand at this level. Just a method of getting in cheap until they get lucky and then try to build the pot.

3) You are not playing a hand like JTs to hit second pair. You are looking to hit straight or flush draws.

4) You were finished on the turn when the second ten came in so just give away your remaining money and deal with it.

5) By your betting and the calling off on the river. You obviously decided with no real information that he didnt have a king. So what did you put him on that was worse than your hand and was still going to pay you off

Lambert180

As above Gary...

Don't open limp pre. If you go watch that video of 4NL I made for you, you'll see I didn't limp pre once. Limping along can be fine with certain hands at these stakes... i.e. 3 people limp and we have A3s, great opportunity to just limp along imo because we don't get enough (any?) folds when we raise, we're dominated a lot when called and when we aint dominated everyone still has very good equity against us. Open limping, no.

Don't bet flop, just c/c. As played, we gotta barrel turn now but should be c/c again, maybe c/r depending on how bad villian is.

River is probably a fold, but it's 100% never ever a shove. I've said this to you before but you need to think about the relative strength of your hand not the actual strength. Most villians are very passive at 4NL so when they raise (especially when it's very big) they tend to have it... if they are somehow bluffing, why would you shove cos their bluffs can't call. Ok so now we're down to hands that raise for value.... QQ? no, AA? no. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see LOTS of flat calls if they do have the case ten, there's only 1 hand that will 100% raise for value and it's Kx

Name just ONE hand that the villian would raise huge on the river and call a shove with that is worse than our hand.

GaryLaud

@ Lambert180,

I think I need to have another look at the video again to remind myself of what I should and should NOT be doing - as this seems to echo exactly as what was said.

if however you take a look at my diary, there were a few hands I feel I did okay on, however I now begin to doubt that I played them correctly, despite being rewarded at showdown with the best hand a nice prize!

hmmm...Major re-think required. Seems I might have lost my way slightly, and forgotten some of the key principals taught.

regards,

Gary

GaryLaud

@ Talon

At the moment, I quite enjoy sitting down with 50BB's (£2.00). So at the stage I played the hand I was just slightly up on that. I gues the answer to Q one is to make a deposit and begin to sit down with the full £4.00's instead?

2) Accepted - V Bad play on my part

3) Agreed - acknowledge exactly what is being said in #3

4 & 5) with a Ten appearing on the turn, I am now holding "Three of a Kind" (10's) and as the player was to act initially before me and had not made ANY large bets at all, there was no information, in my mind to suggest he was holding such a monster! and as there hadn't exactly been much play before this began, I didn't have any witnesses to any playing styles either so playing a little blind.

Betting and calling off on the river was done because the board had paired and matched up with the three tens I already had with a ten in my hand and two in the middle. I felt at the time I would certainly be holding the best hand as I had a full house which is the 4th best hand in Poker!! was quite suprised to find he turned over KK's.

Also bear in mind, that I haven't exactly played much cash, so very much a rookie at present in relation to this format, so still learning. One thing which is encouraging tho is that I am enjoying some winning sessions too. )

Lambert180

In Response to Re: F/Hse vs KKKK - Cooler or Bad play during the hand:

@ Talon At the moment, I quite enjoy sitting down with 50BB's (£2.00). So at the stage I played the hand I was just slightly up on that. I gues the answer to Q one is to make a deposit and begin to sit down with the full £4.00's instead? 2) Accepted - V Bad play on my part 3) Agreed - acknowledge exactly what is being said in #3 4 & 5) with a Ten appearing on the turn, I am now holding "Three of a Kind" (10's) and as the player was to act initially before me and had not made ANY large bets at all, there was no information, in my mind to suggest he was holding such a monster! and as there hadn't exactly been much play before this began, I didn't have any witnesses to any playing styles either so playing a little blind. Betting and calling off on the river was done because the board had paired and matched up with the three tens I already had with a ten in my hand and two in the middle. I felt at the time I would certainly be holding the best hand as I had a full house which is the 4th best hand in Poker!! was quite suprised to find he turned over KK's. Also bear in mind, that I haven't exactly played much cash, so very much a rookie at present in relation to this format, so still learning. One thing which is encouraging tho is that I am enjoying some winning sessions too. )
Posted by GaryLaud

This is exactly what I mean about you needing to start looking at relative hand strength and not actual hand strength,

Actual hand strength = wow I have a FH, I've got the 4th best hand in poker

Relative hand strength = ok I've got a full house but it's a double paired board so FHs aren't very hard to make, and I have the worst possible FH (short of someone having 33). Would someone pay me off with AA/QQ when they know it's so easy for me to have a FH? You hand on this runout is not that strong, it's a bluff catcher really, and given people don't bluff that often at 4NL...

A very basic example...

if you had 22 and the board ran out K9KJK would you be going nuts to get all your money in, cos you've got a FH which is the 4th best hand in poker? No cos you know that you're beaten by any 8, any 9, any king, and any PP 33 thought to AA, and if you EVER get action on this board, it won't be from a hand worse than 22.

shakinaces

Obv echoing the above re: this hand.

Re: short-stacking - I don't see that as being an unreasonable thing to do when you are a newer player, especially when you aren't sitting with a 'standard' bankroll (which is going to need to be a min of £80, 20 BI, and even that may be a bit too aggressive for someone who is learning?)

You need to adjust your ranges accordingly though, as if you're short-stacking you rarely have the implied odds to be calling with small pairs, suited connectors etc and have to play a much tighter range with a higher willingness to play for stacks pre or on the flop.

From UTG / MP you shouldn't really be playing anything other than premium pairs and AKs (and ALWAYS raising), maybe AKo/AQs/AQo/AJs/KQs.

From the blinds you pretty much want QQ+ / AKs and aim to get it all in pre-flop.

Later positions you should be looking for big cards that can flop top pair and then aim to get it all in post-flop asap (unless the flop is particularly scary looking - ie if you have JsTs and the flop comes AhTh9h, with a donk raise and call before you act).

I know there is some tweaking to those ranges, particularly as you play more and get more comfortable with reading oppos, but in short you need to play a much tighter range, much more aggressively.

And then in time, assuming you win, look to progress to playing 100bb stacks, rather than short-stacking at higher buy in levels.

ladyalbion

I agree with the other advice given, but for me the really important point in this hand is that it was a double paired board, and you were holding the lower full house.  Full houses when you have 1 card matching a double paired board are a lot less valuable than full houses where you are holding a pocket pair and have made your set, plus the board has paired.  This is mainly because the full house is really obvious on a double paired board, whereas on a single paired board it is somewhat hidden (although a good player should always notice when a board is single paired, as it reduces the potential strength of straights and flushes).

So when you get heavy action on a double paired board, it is so so likely that your oppo has a full house.  Double paired boards are usually too dry for them to have anything else.  Then you have to consider that they may have a better full house than you.

The reason this isn't a cooler is because the oppo didn't actually need to have quads - any king and they would still have beat you.  I'm not saying you should find a fold on the end there, but definitely just call.  

F_Ivanovic

When you make a bet ask yourself what worse hand am I hoping will call. You bet flop and turn and villain has called twice. Either he has a K, a T, 33, JJ/QQ or AA. Or he has some flush/straight draw. When you bet the river his flush and straight draws are folding (unless you bet small and induce him to make a play) 33 might end up calling, JJ/QQ should be folding at this point as should AA but probably would make a crying call too. A T calls too but you chops vs that Meanwhile a K is raising and putting you to a tough decision. 

So your bet isn't being called by much worse (33 and AA make up only 4/5 hand combos whereas Kx makes up a lot more hand combos (at least 8/9) I mean your bet probably has some value still but it might be more prudent to opt for a c/c if you think opponent is going to bluff with missed draws. (of which there are probably a lot of) When you bet and get raised though, what worse hands is villain raising with for value? Answer:None. He's always raising with Kx and just calling anything worse. So basically, your only hope is villain is bluffing - and at these stakes it's pretty unlikely in this situation.

TeddyBloat

For post game review and as a useful way of getting a feel for river situations: A good way to see if you can value bet is to pick the hands out of villains river starting range that will call your bet and use propoker tools to see your hands equity v that range on the final run out.

If you have over 50% equity v villians calling range then you have a value bet, if not then you are turning your bluff catcher into a bluff.

You can bet small to widen a calling range so as to achieve the required 50%+ equity, but you have to be disciplined enough to lay down your hand against raises, esp readless.

TeddyBloat

A good exercise here would be to model calling ranges v different sizings to see what at what sizing, if any, we can value bet.

If you can then add in a betting range for villain when when checked to (inc a bluffing range) then you can compare the ev of x/c vs bet/ fold.

Unshookone

People at this level think that open limping with marginal hands gives them increased value. This is not bingo, doing that will only mean you have to turn your hand into a bluff on the turn or fold it. Constantly doing that costs money.

You only want to play connecters likes J10 etc for a straight or flush, granted in this situation it's v hard to get away from it unless you apply more pressure on the turn to try and play your hand face up and rep pocket 10's. But at this level people constantly over play one pair.

Personally I think it's pretty unlucky and would play out differently at a higher stakes table where you could probably get someone off Kings.

hhyftrftdr

I wouldn't bother trying to rep anything at 4nl.

Plus quads are probably the hardest hand to rep!

77Chris91

In Response to Re: F/Hse vs KKKK - Cooler or Bad play during the hand:

People at this level think that open limping with marginal hands gives them increased value. This is not bingo, doing that will only mean you have to turn your hand into a bluff on the turn or fold it. Constantly doing that costs money. You only want to play connecters likes J10 etc for a straight or flush, granted in this situation it's v hard to get away from it unless you apply more pressure on the turn to try and play your hand face up and rep pocket 10's. But at this level people constantly over play one pair. Personally I think it's pretty unlucky and would play out differently at a higher stakes table where you could probably get someone off Kings.
Posted by Unshookone

If you could let me know which stake I can get villain to fold Kings at any point in this hand my bankroll would be enternally grateful.

TIA

bearlyther

In Response to Re: F/Hse vs KKKK - Cooler or Bad play during the hand:

People at this level think that open limping with marginal hands gives them increased value. This is not bingo, doing that will only mean you have to turn your hand into a bluff on the turn or fold it. Constantly doing that costs money. You only want to play connecters likes J10 etc for a straight or flush, granted in this situation it's v hard to get away from it unless you apply more pressure on the turn to try and play your hand face up and rep pocket 10's. But at this level people constantly over play one pair. Personally I think it's pretty unlucky and would play out differently at a higher stakes table where you could probably get someone off Kings.
Posted by Unshookone

+1 they respect your raises more