FAO Sky, Sng Promotion

jordz16

Is there anyway of finding out how close I was off of a top 5 prize? I stopped 30 mins before the end of the promotion believing I had already locked up a prize.. Even though  finding out will annoy me greatly it would be good to see how far some people were off of the leaderboard as it would help me gauge these things better for future promotions.

Tikay10

In Response to FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

Is there anyway of finding out how close I was off of a top 5 prize? I stopped 30 mins before the end of the promotion believing I had already locked up a prize.. Even though  finding out will annoy me greatly it would be good to see how far some people were off of the leaderboard as it would help me gauge these things better for future promotions.
Posted by jordz16

Hi Jordz,

If you are referring to yesterday, I think you can see the Top 5 HERE

I don't imagine they wil be publishing any data beyond that, but as least you'll know how far off you were.

jordz16

I have no real way of knowing how far off i was, I made about 6k points but i played a few cash games, sats and tournaments too..

pretty annoying if i cant even find out how many points i got!

MAXALLY

A very good night for this player....

Roller win....

weesambo91

1940000

1

£5400

Plus a phone to put in that 'car'.....

WEESAMBO91

5431

iPhone 6

jordz16

Especially considering they signed up less than a week ago!

unknown_username

Russian roulette should be disallowed from promotions like this. It's a joke that players can manipulate the results

Nutter5932

Unfortunatly jordz I had a look last night to confirm for Alvez if he won or not and you lost out by

30 points or £3 in rake 

Russian roulette should be barred I agree but pixie chose to lose more than the promo reward again in them so sky won't chnage it as its a lot of rake for them to turn down, business is business. 

Unlucky jordz 

Nutter5932

Ignore that I had no idea rtc won one I thought Alvez was the 5th player sigh I forgot rtc and pixie play rrs together.

You got 4840 points I think off the top of my head 

LARSON7

UL Jordz, agree RR should be banned.

As nutter said they won't, they'll have made a killing off them yest.

LARSON7

Did all players in the top 5 play RRs?

Was amazed when I seen 5 players had 5k plus

jordz16

Ugh fairly sure if i didnt take a 30 min break near the end i would have locked it up then.. will be interesting to see how many of teh top 5 are still playing on the site in the new year, only name i recognised was Timmyrara

Nutter5932

Pixie and rtc are long term Russian roulette players.....they blast most point promos this way.

Timmy sng reg we all know

Weeds new high stakes cash reg and won roller last night probably here to stay but no idea why they wanted to grind there beans off for a phone if they are indeed a high shakes cash reg

Kaipi is also a long term hu reg also here to stay 

unknown_username

Kalepi and Timmy didn't play RR, the vast majority of everyone elses volume was. At least the silver lining is that Alvez didn't win the iPhone

jordz16

Kalepi and weesam played a ton of RR's too, i think il give these point races a miss from now on, too much stress!

mrsduck

UL Jordz! Merry Christmas

alex1229

Started the day thinking yeah might have a chance in this, frequently play all the highest buy in DYM's so thought id give it a crack - a couple of hours into it quickly dawned on me i wouldnt have a chance - mainly down to these RR games so packed it in early.

As others have said would be better in the future to see RR excluded, and see people actually have to play for their points. Im suprised how many points was needed for this 5k in one day unreal.

UL to those who just missed out.

JimRiddle7

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

Started the day thinking yeah might have a chance in this, frequently play all the highest buy in DYM's so thought id give it a crack - a couple of hours into it quickly dawned on me i wouldnt have a chance - mainly down to these RR games so packed it in early. As others have said would be better in the future to see RR excluded, and see people actually have to play for their points. Im suprised how many points was needed for this 5k in one day unreal. UL to those who just missed out.
Posted by alex1229

These promotions are weighted towards those who have the biggest bankrolls, and the most expendible income..  this is disgraceful and very unfair.  

The promotion should be based on performance (longest win streak).. and not on your bank account!

Phantom66

I think that if 2 players play alot of RR together in points promotion does this not count as collusion?

They will know that they are losing the rake - they know that luck not skill will determine the profit/loss - they will also know that if rolled for it they are a lock in for the points race.

This may be total collusion whereby 2 players pay each off to balance out any losses, just implied that in the long run it should even itself out on the P/L front.

Worst case of course it could be multi-accounting.

Not saying any 2 player ids in particular are colluding or multi-tabling but I would hope Sky look at playing patterns before paying out.

As stated having RR count for a points race is asking for this sort of thing to happen because it is an easy way to rig the system.

No problem with higher rolled players with the time to grind winning prizes I have no chance of - but it would be better left to people who actually play poker on this poker site.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

I think that if 2 players play alot of RR together in points promotion does this not count as collusion? They will know that they are losing the rake - they know that luck not skill will determine the profit/loss - they will also know that if rolled for it they are a lock in for the points race. This may be total collusion whereby 2 players pay each off to balance out any losses, just implied that in the long run it should even itself out on the P/L front. Worst case of course it could be multi-accounting. Not saying any 2 player ids in particular are colluding or multi-tabling but I would hope Sky look at playing patterns before paying out. As stated having RR count for a points race is asking for this sort of thing to happen because it is an easy way to rig the system. No problem with higher rolled players with the time to grind winning prizes I have no chance of - but it would be better left to people who actually play poker on this poker site.
Posted by Phantom66

2 people mutually deciding to play RR can not in any shape be considered collusion!! Also paying off each other to balance losses would be stupid/needless since it's a zero sum game for them both minus the rake anyway.

Also, as for RR being banned in future promo's - again I don't see the need. These are losing players. Sky should reward them for putting in volume even if it is in a game of chance. Hopefully it will encourage them to keep on playing on sky - which is exactly what the regular players want!

shakinaces

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion : 2 people mutually deciding to play RR can not in any shape be considered collusion!! Also paying off each other to balance losses would be stupid/needless since it's a zero sum game for them both minus the rake anyway. Also, as for RR being banned in future promo's - again I don't see the need. These are losing players. Sky should reward them for putting in volume even if it is in a game of chance. Hopefully it will encourage them to keep on playing on sky - which is exactly what the regular players want!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Didn't someone win a rake race before by playing a stack of RR games, but run bad in them such that they barely broke even after winning the promo?

Given that you must have to lose about £400 or so in rake to win the promo (worth it for a £750-ish phone I guess), it wouldn't take much variance to lose 55-60% or more of the RRs and end up losing overall - would seem to make a lot of sense then to have an agreement with another player to take on each other and remove the variance for a guaranteed win.

Disappointed in myself for not doing that very thing and picking up a cheap iPhone for almost no effort

alex1229

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion : Didn't someone win a rake race before by playing a stack of RR games, but run bad in them such that they barely broke even after winning the promo? Given that you must have to lose about £400 or so in rake to win the promo (worth it for a £750-ish phone I guess), it wouldn't take much variance to lose 55-60% or more of the RRs and end up losing overall - would seem to make a lot of sense then to have an agreement with another player to take on each other and remove the variance for a guaranteed win. Disappointed in myself for not doing that very thing and picking up a cheap iPhone for almost no effort
Posted by shakinaces

Yeah Alvez

Most of the guys would have barely covered the cost of a phone anyway, once your play starts becoming losing, its really not worth the effort

F_Ivanovic

To be honest I wouldn't want to pay even £250 for an iphone 6. Quite happy with the rubbish phone I have, does the job I need it too!! So definitely wouldn't have been willing to pay up to £400 or more in rake just to win the iphone.

ACEGOONER

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion : Yeah Alvez Most of the guys would have barely covered the cost of a phone anyway, once your play starts becoming losing, its really not worth the effort
Posted by alex1229

£5-£600 worth of rake required to win an iphone 6 thats worth £600. Would the two regs that decided to take this approach never apply for the Apprentice. They would instantly get fired for having no business brain. Go on Ebay and get one for cash imo if you are that desperate. This is even before we look at how they run vs EV.  

LARSON7

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion : 2 people mutually deciding to play RR can not in any shape be considered collusion!! Also paying off each other to balance losses would be stupid/needless since it's a zero sum game for them both minus the rake anyway. Also, as for RR being banned in future promo's - again I don't see the need. These are losing players. Sky should reward them for putting in volume even if it is in a game of chance. Hopefully it will encourage them to keep on playing on sky - which is exactly what the regular players want!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Phantom don't think we could ever call this collusion!

Sweeping statement F_I, if you are talking about scope (ive not looked) if they are "losing" it will be due to the RR Games played during promos such as the one above. They are both regular's and highly doubt either is  alosing player.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion : 2 people mutually deciding to play RR can not in any shape be considered collusion!! Also paying off each other to balance losses would be stupid/needless since it's a zero sum game for them both minus the rake anyway. Also, as for RR being banned in future promo's - again I don't see the need. These are losing players. Sky should reward them for putting in volume even if it is in a game of chance. Hopefully it will encourage them to keep on playing on sky - which is exactly what the regular players want!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

It's not a zero sum game if you are both guaranteed to win the prize for the points race and the prize is worth more than the rake paid.

jordz16

Yeah i dont think anyone can suggest any sort of wrong doing has been done, if they were to have set up a ton of RR's together then is that colluding? or is that just using an edge the same way most people look for an edge in poker? i guess its completely dependant how you look at it.

What i would say though is that from 11pm onwards i wanted to play some high stake RR games just to guarantee i had won but they just wasnt running or spawning so i thought they had been discontinued, only later did i see that 2 players had been auto regging every one of them so that i was unable to play them even if i wanted to.

in the terms and conditions it states... 

• Sky Poker reserves the right to withhold or withdraw a bonus from a customer where we reasonably believe that such customer is abusing or defrauding the promotion.

while it certainly isnt  absuing or defrauding the company in any way at all, it certainly defrauded the other players who were looking to make the top 5, as if i could have just been able to play 5 high stakes RR's i would have locked up 5th spot.. 
In                                                                         

Lambert180

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion : 2 people mutually deciding to play RR can not in any shape be considered collusion!! Also paying off each other to balance losses would be stupid/needless since it's a zero sum game for them both minus the rake anyway. Also, as for RR being banned in future promo's - again I don't see the need. These are losing players. Sky should reward them for putting in volume even if it is in a game of chance. Hopefully it will encourage them to keep on playing on sky - which is exactly what the regular players want!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

It 100% makes sense for 2 people to do exactly this, it just limits risk to 0. If you know it's gonna cost £400 in rake to win the phone and you really wanna do that (I wouldn't personally cos it's still joke expensive for a phone imo) then you don't want the risk it could actually cost you £800.

Shakin is prob referring to me. I did RRs for a UKPC promo, which in hindsight was stupid but it was still a +EV proposition long term. In the end I finished almost dead on break even after winning the £1k seat + £500 spending money when I got the RB. However, I skoped myself and ran £500 below EV, and it wasn't a particularly small sample, it's vvv easily done. If I'd have done the same thing but agreed to cover losses with someone else I'd have been a lock to finish +£500 from the promo no matter what, instead of taking the chance of maybe being +£600,700,800 etc or (in this case) break even. Some would argue I was lucky to not make a loss, but then I'd have had to run even more insanely under EV than I already did.

hagisboy

In Response to Re: FAO Sky, Sng Promotion:

Yeah i dont think anyone can suggest any sort of wrong doing has been done, if they were to have set up a ton of RR's together then is that colluding? or is that just using an edge the same way most people look for an edge in poker? i guess its completely dependant how you look at it. What i would say though is that from 11pm onwards i wanted to play some high stake RR games just to guarantee i had won but they just wasnt running or spawning so i thought they had been discontinued, only later did i see that 2 players had been auto regging every one of them so that i was unable to play them even if i wanted to. in the terms and conditions it states...  Sky Poker reserves the right to withhold or withdraw a bonus from a customer where we reasonably believe that such customer is  abusing or defrauding the promotion. while it certainly isnt  absuing or defrauding the company in any way at all, it certainly defrauded the other players who were looking to make the top 5, as if i could have just been able to play 5 high stakes RR's i would have locked up 5th spot..  In                                                                            
Posted by jordz16

Whilst not strictly collusion, playing RRs is clearly an attempt to abuse the promotion, as well as discriminating against the majority of the players on skypoker.

Nearly all lower stakes players ( which sky aim at and state are the backbone of online poker) get excluded from these promos as they never have the bankroll for them.

As already alluded to, sky are making a shedload of rake from this and the RR players are losing/paying a shedload of rake so sky couldn't care less about everybody else

F_Ivanovic

Good poont jordz. I remember reading that T+C when the Punta Cana promo race was put up. I thought: surely playing as many 2p/4p tables as possible and just playing super nitty would lock up the promo. IMO that method would be abusing the promotion since you aren't playing your normal game and you are affecting other players because those playing 2p/4p would get seriously annoyed at you timing out all the time. Unfortunatey Sky didn't see it this way and believed it was perfectly fair to do that. It's rather ambigious then what can be classed as abusing/defrauding a promotion. I got their answer 3 days in so I was too late to really try this anyway given how people had already been doing it.

@ Lambert: It reduces variance and if you don't have the BR for it then yeah I guess it makes sense. But one way isn't any more +ev than other - you could just as easily lose nothing as £800 thus it just adds un-neccesarily complications (plus it then becomes collusion/chip dumping? (although hard/impossible to prove)

@ Larson: I wasn't reffering to any player in particular although I did look at one for curiosity and saw that they were indeed a losing player. I was more pointing out the fact that you can't win money in RR.

If you want to take the gamble of playng them to try and win a promo then good luck to you. If enough people did this then it becomes even less profitable to do so - since you have to play more games to try and win it and even then with more people doing so you have less chance of being a lock to win it. So you might end up losing £400 in rake on avg and only win the iphone 6 20% of the time. That's a HUGE -EV proposition.