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have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO
| TVR84 | Small blind | £0.10 | £0.10 | £22.39 | |
| pieinsky06 | Big blind | £0.20 | £0.30 | £19.70 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| mrdavies | Raise | £0.60 | £0.90 | £25.28 | |
| raggy94 | Fold | ||||
| SJspanky1 | Raise | £2.10 | £3.00 | £24.41 | |
| TVR84 | Fold | ||||
| pieinsky06 | Fold | ||||
| mrdavies | Raise | £6.00 | £9.00 | £19.28 | |
| SJspanky1 | Call | £4.50 | £13.50 | £19.91 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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| mrdavies | Bet | £13.50 | £27.00 | £5.78 | |
| SJspanky1 | All-in | £19.91 | £46.91 | £0.00 | |
| mrdavies | All-in | £5.78 | £52.69 | £0.00 | |
| SJspanky1 | Unmatched bet | £0.63 | £52.06 | £0.63 | |
| mrdavies | Show |
| |||
| SJspanky1 | Show |
| |||
| Turn | |||||
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| River | |||||
| |||||
| SJspanky1 | Win | Flush to the King | £50.26 | £50.89 | |
Comments
MrDavies flop shove is even more standard. When you get 25% of your stack in pre-flop with aces it's +ev to shove on nearly most flops. (If you get 1/3 of your stack in a HU pot it's +ev to ship on every flop regardless of board texture) - this flop is as good as you can hope for with Aces. We have a gutshot, FD blocker and the best one pair. We have more than enough equity against Spanky's range to profitably pot/call on this flop. Any other play is a mistake.
Yes, against a set we are in trouble. In poker you can't fear worst case scenarios: You can only look at ranges and see how you do vs them. It's unlikely AA runs into a set or 2 pair on this board based on PF action. KK is the only hand AA is really afraid of but then if opponent is calling 4-bets with non-premium KK against a range of mostly AA then that opponent is making enough mistakes vs you that it doesn't matter that you GII drawing thin in this instance.
The only questionable play is the raise PF with three Aces. If it's a loose table I would be binning it pre. It's good to play in position in a HU pot but what you don't want is to open and get 2/3/4 callers and OOP. Having nut blockers is cool but at low stakes and only 100bb deep they're not useful enough. The only other reason I'd open is if there was a couple of aggressive 3-bettors - trapping some dead money and GII HU with Aces is always good. We're flipping vs rundowns but can be in great shape vs Ax DS hands that some people like to play aggressively. Other thing to say is 4-bet size should be pot here.
onyl bit im finding hard to understand is the call pre I ade it £6.60 I know now in hindsight im overplaying my aces but surely thats a bad call with his hand? shouldnt thta just be a fold and onto the next hand? I can understand once he'd come that far to get it in on flop with pretty much any board, just seems like he dont like to fold it pre when really its a fold? no?
Not sure you have the mental game to cope with variance in the 4 card format!
I am trying to learn, is that sort of call protiable with those cards. Maybe posting it in the poker clinic isnt the answer.
If you're genuinely looking for advice on his starting hand then you should word things differently.
As for opponents call, yeh it's standard. 5678ss HU when you know you are likely up against AA (or big cards) is just a dream situation and easy flat. In fact in omaha in a HU pot it's very rare you should ever fold to a 4bet since so often you are getting good odds + will flop enough post-flop to GII profitably. KKxx is a hand you can 3b/fold if it's likely you're up against AA, as is some weaker Axxx hands or other paired hands but everything else usually can call.
Hi Mr Davies.
My view is that you should just bin your hand pre-flop.
For ex NLH players, mucking A-A-A-x pre seems an odd & hard thing to do, but it is absolutely correct, your hand is truly horrible, & very difficult to play down the streets. You are, in effect, drawing to the one outer ace, or the flush. Just throw hands like that away, pre-flop.
If you start thinking tsat "one pair" hands (which, effectively, yours was) can survive down the streets, you are going to lose a lot of money.
You had a really, really, bad hand.
As to the Villain, we really should not - imo - be concerning ourselves with whether the villain played it badly or well, IT DOES NOT MATTER.
All we should worry about is how WE should play OUR hand. Forget him, it is irrelevant.
For the record, I would have made the same pre-flop call with 5-6-7-8, or any run-down that extends both ways. (i.e., forget 2-3-4-5 as it has fewer nut outs).
When we call pre in Omaha with, say, 5-6-7-8, we KNOW 100% WE ARE BEHIND. Nothing wrong with that, this is PLO, it is a drawing game, NOT a game of pre-flop "made" hands.
Incidentally, it is always quite amusing to see in the chatbox of a PLO or PLO8 table "nice fishing" or "nice catch". When you see that, you KNOW the villain has no idea how Omaha works.
If we were sharing a table, & you TOLD ME, pre-flop, you had Aces, I would still - very happily - call to see a flop.
If you told me you had THREE Aces, I might even re-raise!
Very, very, interesting game, PLO, but FORGET all you learned about hand ranges & odds in NLH, this is an entirely different game.
Hope you are enjoying PLO, & you persevere. Nothing in poker has given me greater pleasure than PLO & PLO8, be it 4, 5 or 6 cards.
Again F_Ivanovic gives some brilliant replies and info..
I think what Mr White is trying to say, is that his opponent called off 120 big blinds looking for a 3..
he wouldnt of known his flush draw was good, especially as Mr White held the nut flush blocker..
Tikay, i know PLO is a drawing game, but surely you only draw when it is cheap enough to do so..
I would not be calling off £25 looking for a 3..
Even though AAA is not a great drawing hand, Mr White was way ahead when the money went in... and i guess he was looking for a fold, which he should of got imo..
If the river was a 2 of diamonds, Mr White wins a huge pot..
To go all in looking for a 3 is pure gambling..
now i know poker is a gambling game, but when everyone is calling off their stacks with draws, it runs more like bingo..
Going back to the flop call from villain in response to Jim - he's not just calling for a 3 though. His flush draw will be good quite often and a lot of turn cards could give him a pair and/or an extra straight draw out. Normally calling with just 8 high and a gutshot plus a terrible FD would be a terrible play but in a HU pot when you've already invested a large % of your stack you often only need to connect to the flop in some way or other for GII to be profitable.
the nut flush draw would be different, and i would call with a suited A of spades only..
But why oh why oh why did you reraise pre flop and re-open the betting??
you managed to win this one, but as Tikay keeps saying PLO is a drawing game..
i dont think ANY hand in PLO has enough equity to go all in pre-flop..
so you have 6789.. what if your opponent has 789 10 ??
Ivan.. Tikay.. i really dont understand this.. why would you go all in with 6789..
what if your opponent had AA J 10 double suited with spades...?
My "analysis", such as it was, was that I would call to take a flop, & then re-assess. My view was, as I wrote....
".....If we were sharing a table, & you TOLD ME, pre-flop, you had Aces, I would still - very happily - call to see a flop....."
I would suggest that is the standard line with mid run downs, it is certainly mine.
Personally, I'd never go all-in pre with that sort of hand.
With good aces (DS with all Broadway cards) we can be as good as a 2/1 favourite (67% v 33%), & even though I'm generally a nit, & way too cautious, I think I'd happily get it in pre with that. There is also a good chance that we are dominating our opponent who most probably has Broadway cards, too.
That apart, assuming deep stacks, no, there are not many hands I want to get the lot in pre with.
My key point to the OP is that he should not concern himself with how well or badly the Villain played his hand - that is completely irrelevant to our thinking.
The OP sought some advice, & I tried to assist, but I don't think saying "the other guy played it bad" helps the OP at all. We need to concentrate on our own play.
It remains my view that whilst we know we are likely (but NOT guaranteed) to be mathematical favourite (but only by a smidge) PRE-FLOP with A-A-A-x, it is a hand that is extremely difficult to improve, or play down the streets. For that reason, personally, I bin it pre-flop.
There can be a case for seeing the flop texture, but I'd not proceed with great care from there, & have to yield to betting pressure if my hand does not improve. It's unlikely one pair (A-A) is good if the betting gets heavy.
It boils down to opening ranges. A-A-A-x should not be in our range, imo.
PS - If we have, say, A-A-A-K (No suits) & we get called by 10-9-8-7 (DS) we are not even favourite, the run-down is 53% v our 47%.
I'm a bit old school with PLO & PLO8, but generally I was trying to assist the OP with basic strategy. "Don't go to war with A-A-A-x".
If Spanky just calls then it potentially invites me and GAMBEROLO into the pot. If one (or both) of us enter the pot too it's likely that Spanky's FD is unlikely to be good and so is relying solely on connecting with the flop. With 6789 that will happen quite often though and it's also quite easy to make the correct decision post flop. It's likely to have 26% equity 4 way against a range of AA, 15% and 20% so caling instead of shoving may be slightly better but shoving definitely isn't a mistake.
As for your question about what if your opponent has 789T.... well then, we'll only have 35% vs that hand and not in great shape. But we can play this game with anything....in holdem you can go in with KK and think "what if my opponent has AA" - but that's not only unlikely but also there are other hands that villain can GII with that are behind KK. It's v unlikely to be up against exactly 789T or similar slightly higher rundowns. We could also be up against a lower rundown which we dominate.
It does matter how villian played the hand, because now TIKAY is telling the OP to fold AAA preflop...
how rediculous... what, just incase the other guy makes a flush..
What if you fold AAA and the flop comes 222??