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DYM first hand exit (oops) - should I have folded river?

Very poor show to go out of a DYM first level, let alone first hand, but I'm not sure if this was a mistake on my part on the river, or just a cooler.  No reads on the villain except that I had never played him before, and I play a lot of these £5.50 DYMs so probably not a reg.  I thought very carefully about his range during the hand and especially when facing the river shove.  I just thought there were so few 5s or 10s in his range that would call flop as so unlikely he had A5 or A10.  So his range is pretty much pairs 66+ and I thought he would take this river line with a lower set as well, hence my call.  Never would have put him on 55 calling the flop!

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
SlipwaterSmall blind 10.0010.001990.00
mixtoneBig blind 20.0030.001980.00
 Your hole cards
  • A
  • A
   
cowboy11Fold    
The_SnipeFold    
player 1Raise 40.0070.001960.00
ladyalbionRaise 120.00190.001880.00
SlipwaterFold    
mixtoneFold    
player 1Call 80.00270.001880.00
Flop
  
  • A
  • 6
  • 9
   
player 1Check    
ladyalbionBet 135.00405.001745.00
player 1Call 135.00540.001745.00
Turn
  
  • 8
   
player 1Check    
ladyalbionBet 270.00810.001475.00
player 1Call 270.001080.001475.00
River
  
  • 7
   
player 1All-in 1475.002555.000.00
ladyalbionAll-in 1475.004030.000.00
player 1Show
  • 5
  • 5
   
ladyalbionShow
  • A
  • A
   
player 1WinStraight to the 94030.00 4030.00

Comments

  • edited January 2015
    I think your turn bet should have been bigger. You have a customer. Very unlikely to have hit the straight on turn but now there is a flush draw and plenty of straight draws.

    As played i think its a sigh fold and have to assume a str8. Not just 55 but any hand with a 5 or a 10 has got there and you dont see many all in river bluffs level 1 of a dym especially v a player who has shown strength. 

    I would have expected more action from an opponent who had a lower set or 2 pair on the flop/turn too. Your dream scenario is a lower set, but if oppo had a mid set and there is an A on the board they would want to be getting chips in to take you to value town.

    Might seem nitty to fold top set but opponent has almost always got it here and the risk of losing all your chips isnt rewarded that well in a DYM structure.

    You said oppo unknown to you - at 60p that might make it a sigh call - but £5 I'd give them respect and would only consider calling a player who I had observed making big river bluffs on wet boards.
  • edited January 2015
    Sets would be check calling river I imagine, moves like this in general (not only c/c c/c lead, but c/c c/c overbet shove is always the nuts). If I was on your end i'd be worried about 10s personally. Even so we fold and are left with 1.5k stack and if you think we have an edge then its an easier fold to make.
  • edited January 2015
    I think you need to bet bigger on the flop too. Perhaps even lead out.

    I think you really need to fold vs All In there. There's a 13/2 chance he has a 5 or a 10, for me that early on I'm folding, even with top set.

    UL though.
  • edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: DYM first hand exit (oops) - should I have folded river?:
    I think you need to bet bigger on the flop too. Perhaps even lead out. I think you really need to fold vs All In there. There's a 13/2 chance he has a 5 or a 10, for me that early on I'm folding, even with top set. UL though.
    Posted by Shakeylake
    No it's not. You can't just divide 13 by 2 to work out how likely villain has a 5 or a 10. If you were both dealt a hand and saw all 5 cards with no betting then yes, you would be correct. (more or less - it's not exactly 13/2 because you need to exclude the cards on the board.)

    However, here we've had pre-flop, flop and turn action. Pre-flop alone reduces the chance of villain having 5's in his range. Then post-flop, villain has called flop + turn bets. It's unlikely villain has called flop with a 5 unless it's specifically A5. Maybe 56 if he has a BDFD too. Tens that call OTF are AT, 9T and 8T. OTT you'd expect 56 to fold, AT and A5 will probably call again and 9T and 8T might call/fold depending on villain.

    The looser villain is with which hands he calls OTF and OTT the more other hands villain can have in his range. If he's calling turn with 55 then he definitely has 77 too and might well ship with 77 for value since it's so unlikely Hero has a T or a 5. Also, as he called turn with 55 he will call it with plenty of worse hands that are just a pair by this river. As such, his range on the river becomes weak - and if he's aggressive he might try and make up for that by bluffing too much with 1 pair hands.

    Ladyalbion's logic and reasoning in making the call is pretty sound. Being a DYM there's a stronger case for folding. I'm not too sure if a fold is correct or not, it seems pretty close.

    As others have said though, we should be betting more on the flop + on the turn. It doesn't have to be a lot more, but when we flop top set we want to be able to get stacks in by the river. If we make it 150-160 OTF and then 350 OTT, we leave ourseleves with just less than a PSB OTR i think which is better than leaving an overbet.
  • edited January 2015
    Yeah my initial thought was that villain can easy shove a set on river for value as hero rarely/never has a 5 or 10 in their range. It does suck to have to fold top set....I do think it's closer than people think though cos of ^. Maybe give villain benefit of the doubt with it being the very first hand, then watch them like a hawk for the rest of the game.

    No wonder Dev can win 18 in a row at this level, just lol at the call down :)
  • edited January 2015
    Im suprised at the amount of colution on this site,still, such is life
  • edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: DYM first hand exit (oops) - should I have folded river?:
    Im suprised at the amount of colution on this site,still, such is life
    Posted by Daisy666
    I'm surprised at the amount of bad spelling on this site, such is life
  • edited January 2015
    Thanks for your thoughts everyone, this has really helped me think about some aspects of my play.  I definitely see the point about bet sizing and have been working on this.

    As for the river call, I'm glad it is at least worth debating.  I think a weak opponent can shove with a set there too, or even two pair.  He doesn't have the nuts here so he's not only shoving the nuts (and A10 is in my range here, although I doubt he's thinking about that).  However I agree it probably should be a fold because the risk/reward balance of a call is probably wrong in a DYM.

    As for collusion - assuming that's what you mean Daisy - well I don't think I was colluding with this player to give him all my chips... but I may be wrong!
  • edited March 2015
    Lets Dissect this hand I can certainly echo some words here

    Pre flop: 120 bet pre flop on the button was fine, although it looks like player 1 was a calling station but as you said you've never played him before so it's not really that much of a mistake it gets players out of the pot that could get lucky therefore makes your decisions alot easier post flop. Trying to get a range on someone who you've played so few times is pretty futile imo and can distract from the game.

    Post flop: I think you could have gone abit higher, I'd be more inclined to say a 1.5x pot bet of around 400 chips, you've hit 3 of a kind so you've almost got the nuts but you don't want to shove all in asyou'll lose out on some value if you did that, this is a bet that will build the pot so ideally you want a call and if he folds then you've won it anyway without the need for a showdown

    Turn: you've bet again to 270, that's all well and good betting but again you were abit light with the bet size, 1.5x the last bet would have probably been ideal here so 600 chips, the fact he's calling your bet is an indication that he's onto a straight draw and he wants to see the next card

    River: The fact he's gone from calling (weak) to all in (strong) should ring alarm bells here, these sorts of stakes are usually pretty honest so no matter how much you want to you just can't call, it's a fold. I would say leading up to it there was only a few small mistakes but they snowballed and it cost you. Although it looks like poor play from him with pocket 5's and it appears to me that he's a calling station so it would be a good idea to mark him a certain colour (I do this system, greens are for weak players that can be pushed off the pot, orange is players who I've played that I haven't got enough info on through observation and red is players that you shouldn't try and bluff under any circumtance as they'll just call you) I'd have coloured him red.

    So the main lesson here is that you hould be abit more aggressive when betting, you have the right concept in how to play the hand but you were too passive and that you should mark him as a calling station if you play him again
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