Poor flop for AA.

hhyftrftdr

9.30 £11 BH....first level, only a couple of orbits in so no reads apart from he's limped in once or twice. Recognise the name but no history. Call or fold?

artifice7	Small blind		10.00	10.00	2070.00
X	Big blind		20.00	30.00	2045.00
	Your hole cards	A A
jadfish26	Fold
hhyftrftdr	Raise		60.00	90.00	1950.00
otto1st	Fold
TheDart	Fold
artifice7	Fold
X	Raise		240.00	330.00	1805.00
hhyftrftdr	Raise		565.00	895.00	1385.00
X	Call		365.00	1260.00	1440.00
Flop
		9 Q 10
X	All-in		1440.00	2700.00	0.00

Glenelg

Def fold fae me!   Grrrr  tho

F_Ivanovic

i'm not folding.

mrsduck

Close your eyes and call?
Reckon they have AK/AQ/AJ/KK/QQ/JJ five of those you beat at the moment...that's the extent of my maths!

Matt237

Urgh this is just urgh.

I'd be folding, cant think of anything worse other than JcJx that would be donk overbet shoving this flop

(Or KcKx but that probably goes in pre?)

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA.:

Urgh this is just urgh. I'd be folding, cant think of anything worse other than JcJx that would be donk overbet shoving this flop (Or KcKx but that probably goes in pre?)
Posted by Matt237

It's hardly an overbet tho, there's only slightly more than a PSB left OTF so villain will be GII pretty wide - if he had anything really strong he'd probably check. The only hands we lose to IMO are vulnerable 2 pair hands (so QT, Q9, T9) and we have some equity vs these hands. 

Matt237

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA.:

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA. : It's hardly an overbet tho, there's only slightly more than a PSB left OTF so villain will be GII pretty wide - if he had anything really strong he'd probably check. The only hands we lose to IMO are vulnerable 2 pair hands (so QT, Q9, T9) and we have some equity vs these hands. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Are average villains going to be 3betting/peeling 4bets these hands in the BB though? OP says he's limped once or twice which suggests passiveness and we are in the first level still

seanallen

4 betting AA leaving a post flop SPR of about 1.1, I think its right to do it with the intenion of getting it in on any flop?

When people donk pot shove flops, its generally suggestive of a hand that doesn't want to fold but also wants to maximise fold equity.

seanallen

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA.:

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA. : Are average villains going to be 3betting/peeling 4bets these hands in the BB though? OP says he's limped once or twice which suggests passiveness and we are in the first level still
Posted by Matt237

These hands beat us. The fact that two pair combos only make up a small part of his '3bet/peel 4bet range' just increases the chances of our hand being good.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA.:

4 betting AA leaving a post flop SPR of about 1.1, I think its right to do it with the intenion of getting it in on any flop? When people donk pot shove flops, its generally suggestive of a hand that doesn't want to fold but also wants to maximise fold equity.
Posted by seanallen

Yeah I've sized it to be able to play for stacks on any flop....it's just this flop is flipping awful!

When villain 3bets I know he has something decent, and then calls the 4bet I have him on something premium....its that range vs AA on that flop that I'm unsure of.

Matt237

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA.:

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA. : These hands beat us. The fact that two pair combos only make up a small part of his '3bet/peel 4bet range' just increases the chances of our hand being good.
Posted by seanallen

Site timed out for ages, was going to edit and say if he is not 3betting/calling those hands then the same won't apply for pair+draw type hands if any on this board. So I'd say range here is very narrow and on this flop i'm not really too sure if we should be calling a donk all in.

I can't see any Qx or Tx or Jx hands being a part of this range except for QQ/TT/JJ , possibly AQ/AT/AJ but not even sure your average passive villain will be 3betting these hands. Bit too busy to do maths but how are we doing against 99+ and AK+ and AQs+ on this board? Think it will probably end up being a call but can't say I'd be making it.

seanallen

Pokerstove has us at 40% vs 99+, AQs+(First time I've used it though so i might have done it wrong, feels on the high side and hes probably not shoving AK with no club or AK of clubs, so i guess it will put our equity down a bit)

If we are getting around about the correct price to call versus his range then i guess it's a question of whether its better to be sat with about 700 chips in two tournaments and 4700 in one or sat with 2000 in all 3? The latter seems a better proposition to me so i guess it might be a fold versus a premium range.

mrsduck

hufty did you call?

77Chris91

This is really close imo.

Think based on the fact he has limped a couple of times, and the fact that he has just donk jammed as opposed to checking to you makes this a call.

hhyftrftdr

I was far from in love with it, but tank called. I felt I was good now as didn't think he'd jam a flopped set/straight/flush, but I knew I was gonna have to dodge a lot of the deck!

He had JJ and binked the straight on the turn. I genuinely can't remember if he had the Jc but I remember my reaction when the cards went on their backs (oh ****) which makes me think he must have had it!

Thanks for the input guys.

F_Ivanovic

UL... we have 40% vs JJ (with J of clubs) - given PF action which I forgot about in my first post JJ w J of clubs def makes the most sense. But yeah, seems like at worst case vs his donk shoving range we'll have 40%. If we add in all JJ hands, all AQ and all KK hands then it makes it a clear call.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Poor flop for AA.:

UL... we have 40% vs JJ (with J of clubs) - given PF action which I forgot about in my first post JJ w J of clubs def makes the most sense. But yeah, seems like at worst case vs his donk shoving range we'll have 40%. If we add in all JJ hands, all AQ and all KK hands then it makes it a clear call.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

It certainly felt like I was gonna be up against either of JJ (with or without club), AcQx, AcKx and sometimes KcKx.

Snap him off if I had AcAx, but had to give it a little thought without the club insurance

Pkr_Girl

Urgh, i'd be sick!
Fold all day long.