was i correct to jam or is he correct, i should have folded?

craigcu12

having hit the 8 on the river he startings complaining right away that i played it badly.

in my view he himself didn't play it that good, this is the sort of board i'm thinking sets and straights are most certainly going to be reraising the flop as it's a one of them boards that has got so much value from all the hands possible.

having called the flop, i'm now thinking he's got Adxo, Axs, AJ, A10 or is perhps even bluffing an Ax two pair with his runner runner draw.

overall i'm thinking i most certainly will be calling and whilst i might be behind to A9 A8 or A7, i'm still ahead of the nut flush draws and TP+straight draw.

Even if i didn't raise i'm certainly not thinking of folding as the river can still give me a 9 or an 8 for the full house.

Airball	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£22.30
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£26.61
	Your hole cards	9 8
yuranASSet	Fold
KINGKEV375	Fold
Sir-Gary	Fold
swiper22	Fold
Airball	Raise		£0.25	£0.40	£22.05
craigcu12	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£26.41
Flop
		9 7 8
Airball	Bet		£0.60	£1.20	£21.45
craigcu12	Raise		£1.90	£3.10	£24.51
Airball	Call		£1.30	£4.40	£20.15
Turn
		A
Airball	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£4.40	£8.80	£20.11
Airball	Raise		£9.10	£17.90	£11.05
craigcu12	All-in		£20.11	£38.01	£0.00
Airball	All-in		£11.05	£49.06	£0.00
craigcu12	Unmatched bet		£4.36	£44.70	£4.36
Airball	Show	10 J
craigcu12	Show	9 8
River
		8
craigcu12	Win	Full House, 8s and 9s	£43.30		£47.66

TheDent1st

ARE YOU REALLY WASTING MY TIME WITH THIS! PAYING HIM OFF LIKE YOUVE HAD THE BEST 10 MINS OF YOUR LIFE WITH HIM IN A CHEAP MOTEL!! FOLD MAN!!! LET IT GO!!!!

craigcu12

In Response to Re: was i correct to jam or is he correct, i should have folded?:

ARE YOU REALLY WASTING MY TIME WITH THIS! PAYING HIM OFF LIKE YOUVE HAD THE BEST 10 MINS OF YOUR LIFE WITH HIM IN A CHEAP MOTEL!! FOLD MAN!!! LET IT GO!!!!
Posted by TheDent1st

well in another way, i could be saying, was i beaten by more than i thought?

Lambert180

You should deffo fold turn, and you should bet less than pot on the turn imo.

Again, think of relative hand strength, you've raise flop, full potted the turn, repping very strong, and he's clicked it back. If he'd jammed turn then there may be some arguement for saying he can have draws/worse etc but his clickback just screams of not wanting you to fold which = you're crushed.

Think we gotta work on the basis that we have 4 outs when he clicks it back on the turn so about 8% chance of getting there, so we're not getting the price to call his clickback and try to house up, even if we stack him 100% of the time.

Also, the range you're giving him to call the flop is way too narrow. You don't think he might call flop with T9, T8, KQdd, KJdd, KTdd, QJdd (etc), JJ, QQ, KK, AA, 78, 89, 79, pretty much any diamond combo in fact, pretty much any Tx, maybe even stuff like 76.

yuranASSet

Ever thought about turning your chat off when playing?

LARSON7

The turn bet is to big craig.

When he raises the turn - he's telling us loud and clear we are beat.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: was i correct to jam or is he correct, i should have folded?:

You should deffo fold turn, and you should bet less than pot on the turn imo. Again, think of relative hand strength, you've raise flop, full potted the turn, repping very strong, and he's clicked it back. If he'd jammed turn then there may be some arguement for saying he can have draws/worse etc but his clickback just screams of not wanting you to fold which = you're crushed. Think we gotta work on the basis that we have 4 outs when he clicks it back on the turn so about 8% chance of getting there, so we're not getting the price to call his clickback and try to house up, even if we stack him 100% of the time. Also, the range you're giving him to call the flop is way too narrow. You don't think he might call flop with T9, T8, KQdd, KJdd, KTdd, QJdd (etc), JJ, QQ, KK, AA, 78, 89, 79, pretty much any diamond combo in fact, pretty much any Tx, maybe even stuff like 76.
Posted by Lambert180

having review this hand in more detail, 79% of the cards remaining in the deck are scare cards, so not only do i face a great risk of hand beating me, i'll also have a high risk of being bluffed.

So as my hand will not have the same quantity of outs as a set has got, the raise is the last thing i want. so considering we have got lots of scare cards possible to come on the river, should i keep the pot small and gain my value on the turn through an attempted river bluff he might do with missed draws?

Lambert180

Flop raise is fine, just bet turn smaller and fold to this action.

mrleemr1

What lambert said

Benchmark

Perhaps he shouldn't have waited for the turn card to reduce the risk of a diamond flush draw and increase the chance of a heart flush draw ? Also, if you check the turn to try to hide your hand strength, don't be surprised when they go and bet. I don't think it's great play to give people enough rope to hang yourself with.
He led you up the garden path and you walked there. No foul. But hey, what do I know.

ShaunyT

Basically +1 to what most others have said. One piece of advice I would offer is "keep it simple". To me this is one of the stickiest situations in poker, blind on blind, flop that smacks both blinds ranges, turn that makes it even worse. Even at the river I wouldn't be confident of having the best hand, A8, whilst unlikely, would raise the turn like that. There are far better situations to make money in my opinion.

AMYBR

i am literally never raising this flop unless i'm bluffing.  

I dont know what hands you think you want to play against through streets in a bloated pot.

mrleemr1

In Response to Re: was i correct to jam or is he correct, i should have folded?:

i am literally never raising this flop unless i'm bluffing.   I dont know what hands you think you want to play against through streets in a bloated pot.
Posted by AMYBR

"Never raising this flop unless bluffing" this is not a good idea and do not take this advice ��

AMYBR

Back up why you believe its bad "advice" if you please

FTR its not advice, am not saying he ought to do this, merely what my thought process would be.

So expand if you will.

mrleemr1

Well if your only ever raising here as a bluff I can profitably exploit you easily

AMYBR

In Response to Re: was i correct to jam or is he correct, i should have folded?:

Well if your only ever raising here as a bluff I can profitably exploit you easily
Posted by mrleemr1

That much is true and I didnt quite mean it literally.

Am obv raising all high EQ hands but balancing with low eq hands as partial balance, but also because oppo has to be on a very specific range to continue vs multiple barrells.

So yes tbf you are right and i ought to have expanded what I meant.  

But range wise i'd rather raise this texture with junk than 2 pr as seen in the hand, as it is clear that 2pr ought to be close to the bottom of our value range. I would rather be happy to GII w high EQ hands, not bloat with hand as seen, or be selectively aggro with low EQ pure reps as we would be with the high EQ.  Just so hard for oppo to continue without top tier hands through streets.